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7 months ago ::
Oct 29, 2012 - 3:53AM
#61
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Date Joined:
Dec 15, 2011
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WYNZERMAN: Well the dificulties lie in the need of a system that works everytime, so that it's as easy and fast to use as possible. Getting a feel for it is a talent not everyone are equipped with, though practice does have an effect. MOIMOI: Speaking of aforementioned drugs, this conversation has generally been about creatures, and Iv'e mentioned that burn was the second easiest thing to base such a system on. And then you go and ask for an ordinary artifact? That's not within my field of expertise, and you also failed to put down a card to compare it with. I can't do artifacts if they arent creatures also, so I have to skip that one  Secondly, I did not tell you that sengir is better because it has become uncommon rather than rare! What I did inform you about was that wotc has probably updated their database on the cost of special abilities for creatures, which is plain and ordinary powercreep. To state that I'm on drugs is rather insulting, and for once I feel pretty biased towards finally reporting your constant harrasment! Stop rephrasing my words to fit your hatefull campaign towards me or I will...
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7 months ago ::
Oct 29, 2012 - 4:10AM
#62
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Date Joined:
Oct 23, 2010
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WYNZERMAN:
Well the dificulties lie in the need of a system that works everytime, so that it's as easy and fast to use as possible.
Getting a feel for it is a talent not everyone are equipped with, though practice does have an effect.
It isn't a matter of calculation, since there is a subjective factor to card evaluation. There are some cards I would play in a competitive deck that friends would eschew because they assumed the lack of worth said card had due to it not having an explosion of popularity over obvious utility- That doesn't make them particularly amazing tech, or particularly horrendous, it simply indicates the subjectivity involved in deciding which cards to try. Instead, card evaluation is about testing, experience and basic understanding of how Magic plays out as a card game (often, it's just best to ask a more experienced player how to look at a card, or how they feel about a specific card.)
An interesting example is that Jace, Architect of Thought  was seen as "meh" card by many early evaluations after it's spoiling, and for good reason. I was excited to get a mini- Fact or Fiction  on a stick, but many fairly reasonable people assumed that it didn't have a place as a particularly good card (it's now a pillar of the new Standard format.) While my early evaluation may have been correct, it was on a subjective basis. Similarly, I like Exclusion Ritual  as a singleton in constructed formats where 6 mana is reasonable- But I have seen many reasonable arguments that indicate that Exclusion Ritual is a terrible card, even though it's a conditionless non-land exile and Meddling Mage  rolled into the same spell.
Signature by 
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7 months ago ::
Oct 29, 2012 - 4:54AM
#63
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Date Joined:
Dec 15, 2011
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WYNZERMAN: This post IS about making an objective system to evaluate cards. (And their use in decks) I have sort of hi-jacked it in an atempt to explain that a simple system existed to evaluate individual cards. (Well, simple if you know it by heart!) How would you evaluate twisted abomination? When using the system I've been talking about it ranks 4 points above a balanced common-card, which is pretty much considering that cards like dark confidant and snapcaster mage ranks far less in comparison! (That's a hint MOIMOI! Ask me to compare twisted abomination with some other common creature and ask WHY it would ever rank so highly, because THAT card really goes through the roof so much that it's a wonder that it isn't still seing play these days. It's rather insane, and I have no answer or excuse why it ranks that high) I have just been trying to roam the net for any statement on cardcreation by R&D developers, and though there is talk about some sort of core rules in building the cards, it is never discussed in detail, but it sure is being used by wotc. As to why such a rulessystem has never been revealed I would guess that their highest concern would be a flooding of e-mails from persons who've made set after set using those rules and now tried to become employed. Who wouldn't? But that there IS a cardcreation system is beyond doubt, both reading articles from rosewater and tinsman. I tried to access tinsmans book on how to create a tradingcard game, but it was not for free, so I couldn't get it 
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7 months ago ::
Oct 29, 2012 - 9:05AM
#64
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But since they do not have the same rarity, the rarity will have to be subtracted!
THEN WHY DID YOU INCLUDE RARITY IN THE SYSTEM TO BEGIN WITH??? If you were just going to not include it into the calculation, why did you even have it? What was the point?
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7 months ago ::
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:51AM
#65
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Date Joined:
Oct 12, 2010
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Technically, Vexing Devil  is a four-damage Bolt. Usually that's what it'll be used for. I actually heard a kid the other day say to his friend "it's rare so it's better". And I'm thinking "This kid wasn't even born when Sorrow's Path  came out."
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
----
Autocard is your friend.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] = Lightning Bolt 
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7 months ago ::
Oct 29, 2012 - 3:52PM
#66
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Date Joined:
Sep 22, 2008
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Let's show you the flaws of your system 1- Rarity being a factor 2- Not being to rate anything else than BASIC creatures and some BASIC burns 3- Not being to rate interactions with other cards 4- Not being able to differenciate a game winning ability on a card to a simple ability on a card 5- Do I really need to continue? Those flaws above and more then enough and it's barely the tip of the iceberg. Your system doesnt work, YET again you've proven that you could make insanely flawed systems that never works except in your head. According to your system, Master Transmuter  is a terrible card. It got low power for it's mana cost and got only 1 ability. According to anyone with half a brain, it's a "OH CRAP, here we go again" card. I master transmute my blue artifact land that I just tapped for mana to put in "insert insanely good artifact" for example darksteel forge  or memnarch  or whatever other insanely strong artifact.
I love trolls  Dont hate me because I'm blunt and you cannot handle it
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7 months ago ::
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:23PM
#67
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Date Joined:
Oct 12, 2010
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And of course things like Lhurgoyf  and Maro  are impossible to rate on this scale.
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
----
Autocard is your friend.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] = Lightning Bolt
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7 months ago ::
Nov 01, 2012 - 2:53AM
#68
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Date Joined:
Dec 15, 2011
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INFINIGHT:
Rarity is only removed when comparing cards of another rarity.
When you want to compare a common with a rare there HAS to be a degredation of the rarecard because the powerlevel of rares are so much higher.
BAY_FALCONER:
Technically vexing devil is not just something that will make an opponent lose 4 life. If they think they can deal with it they might try to use removal instead of losing life, and if that removal fails, then they got a big problem. So no it's not just 4 damage. Especially if the vexing devil is inside a fast burndeck which will make them think twice about taking the 4 damage to themselves. I guess it was the same kid who told you it was a 4 damage bolt?
MOIMOI:
1: Rarity IS a factor and should be calculated within the system.
2: The system can be used for other cardtypes than critters and burn, but I never focussed on that part of the system, which makes me the lesser expert on the system.
3: That the system does not include the interaction between cards does not mean the system is flawed, it means that noone has been able to calculate a part that covers interaction.
4: considering this is within the same sphere of logic, how come you didn't say that the system also needs a mode to calculate the failure of a cardinteraction due to opponent's interference?
5: System isn't flawed, It's just not something everybody needs to save their day. Wanna talk flawed systems? Talk about the mods in here.
BAY_FALCONER:
Lhurgoyf and maro are cards which can be measured with other cards. Tarmogoyf is uncalculable until something else like it comes along.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 01, 2012 - 3:31AM
#69
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Date Joined:
Sep 22, 2008
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INFINIGHT:
Rarity is only removed when comparing cards of another rarity.
When you want to compare a common with a rare there HAS to be a degredation of the rarecard because the powerlevel of rares are so much higher.
BAY_FALCONER:
Technically vexing devil is not just something that will make an opponent lose 4 life. If they think they can deal with it they might try to use removal instead of losing life, and if that removal fails, then they got a big problem. So no it's not just 4 damage. Especially if the vexing devil is inside a fast burndeck which will make them think twice about taking the 4 damage to themselves. I guess it was the same kid who told you it was a 4 damage bolt?
MOIMOI:
1: Rarity IS a factor and should be calculated within the system.
2: The system can be used for other cardtypes than critters and burn, but I never focussed on that part of the system, which makes me the lesser expert on the system.
3: That the system does not include the interaction between cards does not mean the system is flawed, it means that noone has been able to calculate a part that covers interaction.
4: considering this is within the same sphere of logic, how come you didn't say that the system also needs a mode to calculate the failure of a cardinteraction due to opponent's interference?
5: System isn't flawed, It's just not something everybody needs to save their day. Wanna talk flawed systems? Talk about the mods in here.
BAY_FALCONER:
Lhurgoyf and maro are cards which can be measured with other cards. Tarmogoyf is uncalculable until something else like it comes along.
1- Rarity is NOT a factor that makes a card better, stop trying to convince anyone, it's a factor in your own little mind and is actually an excuse to adjust your system since rares are usually better than uncommon and commons and your system often doesnt reflect that.
2- The system cannot be used for anything else than BASIC creatures and BASIC burn. If anything got too much writing on it or involve too much interaction with other cards, it cannot evaluate properly. You couldnt even BEGIN to evaluate unwinding clock  that is the cornerstone of one of my deck (and for the sake of it aether vial  lux cannon  steel overseer  voltaic key  lodestone myr  master transmuter  ratchet bomb 
3- Yes it does, no one is able to calculate interaction in a mathematical way, it's impossible, so no one tried............ except the foolish
4- Are you helping me find more flaws? See my original point 5.... tip of the iceberg
5- Completely disagree with the first part, completely agree with the second part
I also find it funny that you always jumped on all my examples, but you didnt touch master transmuter .......... ............... or lodestone myr ......... or any "supposed subpart" creature with crappy stats for it's cost that will increase over time, often exponentially. How bad is Elvish piper  according to your system? On mine, it usually mean an hasted mythic eldrazi on turn 3 in my g/r deck.
I love trolls Dont hate me because I'm blunt and you cannot handle it
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7 months ago ::
Nov 01, 2012 - 9:18AM
#70
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Date Joined:
Oct 12, 2010
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Rarity affects limited in as far as you'll see fewer of the card. Doesn't mean that if I magically get a box each of the Urza block, I'll pull Carnival of Souls  ever except as pick #15. You can't measure Lhurgoyf or Maro against cards other than that type, since they have a variable power and toughness. It's a huge problem, because this requires card draw or milling/discard/sac outlet/sweepers to determine the card's value. In short, you can't measure the value of it. This also applies, by the way, to Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer  .
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
----
Autocard is your friend.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] = Lightning Bolt
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