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10 months ago ::
Sep 26, 2012 - 12:06AM
#1
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Date Joined:
May 25, 2012
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I understand that, somehow, Dominating Licid  probably works within the rules. I don't understand how. My confusion stems from "303.4i If a non-Aura permanent has an ability that refers to the "enchanted [object or player]," that phrase doesn't refer to any object or player." At the time control-changin g effects are evaluated in layer 2, it's a non-aura permanent. When it's activated ability makes it an aura in layer 4, layer 2 has already been evaluated.
So, with the layers evaluated in order, how does Dominating Licid actually gain control of a creature?
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10 months ago ::
Sep 26, 2012 - 12:27AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jan 24, 2011
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Continuous effects aren't evaluated once and then ignored for the rest of the game. They're always on. As soon as the Licid becomes an aura and attaches to the targeted creature, the control effect kicks in. The layers exist to define how some contradictory effects might behave. For example, casting Giant Growth  on a 1/1 makes it a 4/4. Casting Turn to Frog  , without looking at the rules, could make the creature either a 1/1 or a 4/4. Layers exist so that players know which answer is correct (in that case, the creature would be a 4/4 frog.)
Rules Advisor Please autocard: [c ]Disenchant[/c ] = Disenchant  .
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10 months ago ::
Sep 26, 2012 - 12:39AM
#3
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Date Joined:
May 25, 2012
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Continuous effects aren't evaluated once and then ignored for the rest of the game. They're always on. As soon as the Licid becomes an aura and attaches to the targeted creature, the control effect kicks in.
The layers exist to define how some contradictory effects might behave. For example, casting Giant Growth on a 1/1 makes it a 4/4. Casting Turn to Frog , without looking at the rules, could make the creature either a 1/1 or a 4/4. Layers exist so that players know which answer is correct (in that case, the creature would be a 4/4 frog.)
That interaction takes place almost entirely within Layer 7.
For the Licid to be an Enchantment - Aura, Layer 4 must be applied to the object that is Dominating Licid "613.1d Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied. These include effects that change an object's card type, subtype, and/or supertype." This happens after Layer 2 is applied "613.1b Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied."
I understand that Continuous Effects are evaluated constantly, but 613.1 clearly states that "The values of an object's characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. [...] Then all applicable continuous effects are applied in a series of layers in the following order:" So, while Continuous Effects are constantly evaluated, they must always be evaluated in order.
Given that, the control changing effect must always be evaluated before the type-changing effect, so the Licid cannot ever actually change control of a creature when it's an aura.
Edited for clarity.
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10 months ago ::
Sep 26, 2012 - 1:00AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Mar 29, 2005
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I think I see where your confusion is occurring. Layers only apply to multiple effects that are affecting a single object. The licid's ability turns itself into an aura, and while it's attached to a creature, a change of control effect is affecting that creature. Layers don't apply to this situation, because the two effects are on different permanents.
Ever feel like people on these forums can't possibly understand how wrong they are? Feeling trolled? Don't get mad. Report Post.
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10 months ago ::
Sep 26, 2012 - 1:28AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Sep 19, 2008
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So, with the layers evaluated in order, how does Dominating Licid actually gain control of a creature?
It doesn't. You are correct, the rules aren't perfect. We just have to pretend that Dominating licid works when it really doesn't work. Sorry 
I think I see where your confusion is occurring. Layers only apply to multiple effects that are affecting a single object. The licid's ability turns itself into an aura, and while it's attached to a creature, a change of control effect is affecting that creature. Layers don't apply to this situation, because the two effects are on different permanents.
This is incorrect. Layers apply in the same way to all the continuous effects that affect the characteristics or set the control of objects.
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10 months ago ::
Sep 26, 2012 - 5:07AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
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shhh...
nothing to see here
move along
There's nothing wrong with this interaction. (Jedi hand wave)
MtG Rules Advisor &
Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJDJ VortexDCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320 Wit found in Rules Q&ARPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?" My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out
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10 months ago ::
Sep 26, 2012 - 5:10AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Oct 18, 2009
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[<o>]
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10 months ago ::
Sep 26, 2012 - 7:21AM
#8
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Date Joined:
May 25, 2012
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There's nothing wrong with this interaction. (Jedi hand wave)
There's nothing wrong with this interaction.
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10 months ago ::
Sep 26, 2012 - 6:46PM
#9
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- Volunteer Community Lead
- blame me for the weather
Date Joined:
Feb 27, 2002
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Moving to Rules Theory & Templating.
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10 months ago ::
Sep 26, 2012 - 8:18PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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No Jedi mindtricks are necessary because it really does work perfectly fine. You have to keep in mind that the two effects apply to different objects.
- One effects makes Dominating Licid an Aura.
- The other effect changes the control of Unamed Creature.
There's no interaction that needs to be resolved using layers or timestamps.
- When looking at Dominating Licid, you apply one effect in layer 4.
- When looking at Unamed Creature, you apply one effect in layer 2.
Right? Maybe the Jedis really got me bad.
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