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9 months ago ::
Sep 17, 2012 - 11:42AM
#21
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2011
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The issue is that the player can't prove they are 100% to win a game, given that there is a time limit (50 minutes) for the game. While the combo might be 100% to win from a given state (i.e. opponent has no cards, completely tapped out and no relevant ability on the field and the player has 4 Narcos in play and no graveyard), it cannot be proven that the winning state can be acheived before the time limit for the match. And since the ending game state after X iterations cannot be provided, you can't just "jump" the game to that point and continue with the game (bypassing the time required to complete the combo). Thus, since the actions must be taken to reach a desired point, the player is constantly stalling the game by taking actions that produce the exact same effect over and over again, which apparantly IS "slow play".
The question is not about the deck actually being able to win or a way to shortcut the process because the deck clearly has a win condition in mind and there is no legal way to shortcut the interactions. This has already been established and clearly correct. The question becomes "how much leeway does the player get with this deck?"
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9 months ago ::
Sep 17, 2012 - 12:03PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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Quick off-topic question: How is the Blasting Station recursed?
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9 months ago ::
Sep 17, 2012 - 12:07PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2011
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9 months ago ::
Sep 17, 2012 - 12:10PM
#24
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Quick ott-topic question: How is the Blasting Station recursed?
Dread Return  gets Sharuum the Hegemon  , which gets Blasting Station  . Then you mill until you get Narcomoeba, use Blasting Station to deal damage, mill until you get Emrakul, shuffle your Narcomoebas back into your library, and do it again.
I did not realize it was a ridiculous three-piece Blasting Station combo. That would take forever.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 17, 2012 - 12:10PM
#25
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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I did. Isn't that how the Blasting Station is fetched? 3 or 4 Narcomoeba in play, stack empty, Dread Return is flashbacked getting Sharuum the Hegemon, which gets Blasting Station, so you're left with:
- Sharuum the Hegemon
- Blasting Station
- Nacromoeba (sometimes)
What's next? [Nevermind, PirateAmmo just answered. Oh wow, that's crazy!!!!!!!]
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9 months ago ::
Sep 17, 2012 - 12:16PM
#26
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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At least you can mill all 60 cards when in the blasting loop by responding to Emraku's trigger, so it's actually quite fast once the blaster is out.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 17, 2012 - 12:19PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2011
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Yeah, the start and end are easy to shortcut, but the fact that the middle takes forever really kills it. I wish the deck could be playable because I think it's a really cool idea.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 17, 2012 - 12:23PM
#28
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Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2005
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How did the judges at the tournament handle this deck?
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9 months ago ::
Sep 17, 2012 - 12:24PM
#29
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Date Joined:
Oct 13, 2002
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From the link I posted earlier: Spoiler:
Show
"During Round 3 of the tournament, I was made aware of a Four Horsemen player on the feature match table. I went over to watch the match, knowing that I was likely to see a problematic line of play according to the IPG. When the player started to flip cards from the Basalt Monolith/Mesmeric Orb combination, he quickly ran into Emrakul, and was forced to shuffle his library. After doing this again, he was left in an identical game state: An empty graveyard and no other change to the game state. By performing the same loop of actions without changing the game, he was violating the shortcut policy outlined in the Magic Tournament Rules and the Slow Play policy in the Infraction Procedure Guide. These state:
MTR 4.2 – Tournament Shortcuts
'A tournament shortcut is an action taken by players to skip parts of the technical play sequence without explicitly announcing them. Tournament shortcuts are essential for the smooth play of a game, as they allow players to play in a clear fashion without getting bogged down in the minutia of the rules. Most tournament shortcuts involve skipping one or more priority passes to the mutual understanding of all players; if a player wishes to demonstrate or use a new tournament shortcut entailing any number of priority passes, he or she must be clear where the game state will end up as part of the request.'
The shortcut to loop Monolith/Orb until you reach a game state with a specific graveyard composition does not qualify as a being 'clear where the game state will end up as part of the request.' You are looking for a random configuration of cards that includes three specific cards in any order: , Sharuum, and .
IPG 4.3 – Tournament Error – Slow Play
'It is also slow play if a player continues to execute a loop without being able to provide an exact number of iterations and the expected resulting game state.'
This is where we run into a problem. The player is executing a loop (Monolith/Orb until Emrakul flips, shuffle, repeat, any unknown number of times until the magic graveyard exists). To attempt to repeat this loop constitutes Slow Play, and that upgrades from a warning to a game loss on the second infraction.
In the end, I instructed the player to make a different game choice to advance the game state. Manually tapping/untapping instead of shortcutting doesn’t fit the bill.
The game ended shortly after I made this ruling, and I was not called to any of his other matches.
Josh Stansfield
Los Angeles Legacy Open Head Judge"
All Generalizations are Bad
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9 months ago ::
Sep 17, 2012 - 12:36PM
#30
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2011
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Basically, the judge did nothing. By the time a ruling was made, the game in question was over (Dread Return was eating a Force of Will). The second game didn't matter because the opponent had so much hate for the original combo ( Leyline of the Void  with no bounce for it) and the transformative sideboard ( Show and Tell  vs. a Show and Tell deck, Painter's  Stone  vs. Emrakul). The judge never followed up and didn't track the player for the rest of the tournament.
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