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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 4:56AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2011
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suppose i have an empty battlefield, and somehow two Healer of the Pride  s and a Walking Corpse  simultaneously enter the battlefield under my control (say with Faith's Reward  ). do i gain any life? the gatherer ruling says i do, and so presumably i'd gain 8 life (2 for one healer, 2 for another, and 4 for the walking corpse): ==
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If Healer of the Pride enters the battlefield under your control at the same time as other creatures, its ability will trigger once for each of those creatures.
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== but i don't understand *why* it works this way? if i had to guess without the ruling, i would have guessed that the ability of the Healer isn't "on" and checking for other creatures to enter, until after that healer already entered?
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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 4:59AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
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yes, each one would trigger for the other and any other creatures would trigger them both 603.6d Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions. [..]
MtG Rules Advisor &
Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJDJ VortexDCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320 Wit found in Rules Q&ARPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?" My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out
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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 5:04AM
#3
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Since they are enter the battlefield simultaneously, each of them will see the other creatures enter the battlefield. Therefore, each healer will trigger 2 times in this case.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 5:07AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2011
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==
Since they are enter the battlefield simultaneously, each of them will see the other creatures enter the battlefield. Therefore, each healer will trigger 2 times in this case.
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yes, i understand that they "see" the other creatures enter the battlefield if it happens simultaneously, but i don't understand why the "whenever another creature enters the battlefield, do X" triggered ability is "on" so soon?
to put it another way, suppose i have the following creature:
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Self Soul Warden W
Creature -- Cleric
Whenever a creature enters the battlefield under your control, gain 1 life.
1/1
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then i don't understand why he'd trigger off of himself.
this is the part of the rules i want to understand better.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 5:07AM
#5
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Triggers are normally checked immediately after and event occurs, so if multiple cards enter at the same time they will be all on the battlefield at the time you check for abilities triggered by them entering the battlefield. The big exception to this is leaves the battlefield triggers which are checked immediately before the event occurs. Therefore if multiple creatures die at the same time they will all see each other die and any appropriate abilities they have will trigger.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 5:10AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2011
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MJWhitefield, i believe i understand what you wrote, but it still isn't answering the question i'm looking to get answered. (you may have posted too shortly before i wrote the post immediately before yours to have seen it, where i clarify what i really want answered).
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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 5:37AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Oct 18, 2009
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It's a specific rule for enters-the-battlefield triggers. 603.6a. Enters-the-battlefield abilities trigger when a permanent enters the battlefield. These are written, "When [this object] enters the battlefield, . . . " or "Whenever a [type] enters the battlefield, . . ." Each time an event puts one or more permanents onto the battlefield, all permanents on the battlefield (including the newcomers) are checked for any enters-the-battlefield triggers that match the event. So first the event (a permanent entering the battlefield) happens, then you check to see if any ability triggered from this happening - the 'newcomer' is already a permanent at this point, so it's ability can trigger for the creature itself.
[<o>]
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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 6:52AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
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I don't understand why the "whenever another creature enters the battlefield, do X" triggered ability is "on" so soon?
if it didn't work that way something like Mulldrifter  wouldn't work at all, it can't trigger before it's on the field so it has to trigger after
likewise the trigger on Healer of the Pride
MtG Rules Advisor &
Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJDJ VortexDCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320 Wit found in Rules Q&ARPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?" My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out
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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 7:26AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2012
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You can think of the "flow" of the game to work something like I will explain below. I think you're looking for a technical response, so I'm going to get a bit technical. 1) An event occurs. 2) The game checks to see if any trigger conditions are met. 3) Players get priority, etc. So in the case of Healer of the Pride and friends: 1) Healer of the Pride x2 and Walking Corpse enter the battlefield. Any abilities they might have are now "on." 2) The game checks triggers. Healer of the Pride has an ability that triggers when a permanent enters the battlefield. Three permanents have entered the battlefield since the last time we checked the gamestate. (You can think of this as the last "frame" if you like programming metaphors.) Healer of the Pride specifically excludes itself, so each will trigger only twice. 3) The Healers' abilities go on the stack. Assuming no responses, you gain 8 life (2 life x 2 triggers x 2 healers).
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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 9:31PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2011
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2goth4u: that is an interesting idea, that mulldrifter wouldn't trigger, but it wouldn't be enough alone to convince me that my made up Self Soul Warden would trigger; just becuase i might have thought that Mulldrifter might "make an exception" by being so explicit in what its supposed to do.
will_dice and Bowshewicz: this is /exactly/ what i was looking for. thank you very much! i am now a little more knowledgeable about the rules than before :D i love the feeling of getting closer to gaining "rules experience points"!
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