I'm going to try my best to not sound condescending or rude, but I think the idea of banning any colorless card that you feel is "mandatory" for a deck is a very bad idea. I have 7 EDH decks, none of which have Solemn Simulcron.
Well then I'd say about half those EDH decks are worse off for not having it. Does the fact that you're not using it make it any less obligatory (if you don't like mandatory) in most deck? No, it just means you're not using something which you almost certainly should be using.
Are you going to throw in Duplicant? What about Sensei's Divining Top?
Those are certainly viable candidates to help encourage the format to function as designed, yes. Even Darksteel Pendant isn't without a decent case against it.
Or Reliquary Tower?
The effect is weak and extremely situational, being entirely inapplicable at most times, and generally not able to disrupt any but the most extremely obscure of strategies. This would be a case of something that is colorless and splashable, but doesn't offer a disruptive effect.
To the idea of throwing out Land Tax or Sylvan Library or any of those other older cards, once again, where are you arbitrarily going to draw the line?
My point was that there are a lot of cards that are obviously powerful, in some cases overpowered, and that the format would also benefit from reviewing a number of classic restricted/banned cards. Those were just some top-of-head examples, and I'm sure players could come up with other examples.
Ulamog, I can tell you your playgroup is very basic in terms of what the threat cards are. The only one I have in a deck never lasts more than 2 turns in multiplayer.
If you think my issue with Ulamog specifically relates to him as a creature on the board, you clearly didn't read. And you call it an overcosted Vindicate, but chances are they also had to waste a card to get rid of it. Destroying a permanent of your choice AND wasting a good removal spell actually isn't too bad, even if he "never lasts more than 2 turns". Actually attacking with him is gravy. MY issue is that he can be splashed into any deck and completely subverts 95% of mill effects.
Honestly, it sounds to me like you hate any card that is indestructible. To which I can only say, suck it up and run exile effects. Seriously, when you have gone down to abstract, NEVER used, darksteel artifacts, you're 100% wrong. I've never even seen someone run Darksteel Pendant in an EDH deck.
About Ulamog, if your complaint is that you need to use a removal spell against a big creature, deal with it. Have fun playing any EDH deck that isn't combo based. What are you going to do against decks that creatue dozens of tokens most turns they want to? Or recursion decks? Honestly, you sound like you play without any removal and want to be "edgy" and "unique" so you don't use good cards that are available to you. You said that all of my decks would be better with Solemn Simulcrum, but that logic is your problem. You don't know a thing about my decks and yet you assume to know what would make them better. My EDH decks with green are always more effective and stronger with Yavimaya Elder over Solemn and I don't have room for the other so I don't run it. All good cards require a 1 for 1 trade and should create card advantage for the person who cast them. Are you going to ban all the Titans because they create advantage and the best you can do is 1 for 1 them and the caster got an advantage?
On mill... much like weenie aggro the format is not conducive to the strategy eldrazi notwithstanding. 100 cards and multiple opponents isn't something you can mill through without some combo'y way to do it.
But that's the last serious thing I'm contributing to this thread. Are we really allowing this nonsense to continue? Darksteel pendant has a case for being banned but reliquary tower is "weak and extremely situational"? Two options... troll or format noob.
When playing Commander, before you add a card to your deck, you have to ask yourself: "Is this card better than Rings ?" If you play commander and don't have your deck[s] in the Decklist Compendium, maybe you should. Or if you're new or looking into the format, the compendium has some good advice for beginners as well as decklists.
Time to interject some real thought to this. $300 makes a good deck? Honestly my only EDH deck costs somewhere in the upper end of 600. Yes alot of that is just my collection, and I didn't actually spend 600 to obtain all the cards. This is also my only EDH deck.
First thing I'd like to say is that Time Walk and Ancestral Recal are both banned in the format. The inclusions for the ban list for this format are almost entirely based off interactivity. Generally the less interactive a card is, the more likely it is to be banned.
The thing i see in most of these threads, about banning cards, is "Waaaa, this guy wins more because I can't afford better cards." I can believe that scenario in a 1v1 setting. But if you're playing multiplayer and you still have this issue its entirely your and the other opponents fault. Instead of blaming cards that make other people enjoy the game, why not figure out what to do in these scenarios.
1. Attack the biggest threat! This is a political format, you should encourage the other players to attack the biggest threat as well. Assume some of that hate is going to come your way if all of a sudden your gamestate grows.
2. Consider your deck a rough draft. Unless you've been playing your deck for several months and made necessary adjustments, accept that your deck is not optimal.
3. Be willing to change. Many decks in this format need to be changed up. Each local metagame will be a little bit different, you should make changes to have your deck perform optimally in this situation. There are literally no un-answerable problems in this format. EVER!
4. The 25% clause. This weekend my playgroup, came up and discussed this idea. Even if your deck is optimal, accept that you will likely lose 75% of the time. There's 4 other players and they all have a chance to win, even if their deck isn't optimal. Consider that if your deck wins 25% of the time in the same 4 person group that your deck is performing average or better.
5. You're responsible for your own fun. No one can make you happy, sad, or angry except you. Stop assuming that others play the game for your enjoyment.
Yeah, the format being multiplayer helps balance out decks that are just stronger than others (but still play 'fair' and interactively). Did he get a broken start like sol ring into solemn, into primetime? Cool, he's way ahead of everyone, but that 4 player free-for-all is now probably very close to a 3v1, which will bring his increased chance of winning back to the ~25% range
I'm sorry, but the OP's rationale for these proposed bans is deeply flawed. Popular utility cards should be banned...because people use them as resources? How dare they?! I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Excessive banning is bad for the format because it's oppressive. If we're even talking about banning Darksteel Ingot , then we have bigger problems.
Side note, the OP's words and tone suggest that he thinks nobody was discussing the format at all until he decided to grace us with his 21 posts.
University of Charleston School of Pharmacy, Class of 2016
but should a card be banned simply because its a staple? areyou prposing solemn simulacrum be banned? the card is optional i would propose banning sensei top, but because it slows the game down, not just because its colorless
I do believe that a primary point of EDH should be having to build around color restrictions, not about finding cost-efficient colorless ways to subvert them. Having the format too loose on restrictions just means it becomes Vintage 100-card Singleton. You need a certain measure of restrictions to preserve the unique identity of the format.
And there are ways to win by milling yourself instead. Say someone wanted to run Mono-Blue Mill, and there are a LOT of Blue cards to support the strategy, and at least a few suitable Blue Commanders running around. Can't do it with Ulamog even existing in the format. It's as if there was a land that tapped for mana and gave you Hexproof by simply being in play or in your graveyard. You shouldn't just be able to have a colorless card physically in your deck as a 1-of copy that all but disables entire gameplay archtypes.
it's a casual format by definition, which makes restricting cards arbitrary anyway. if so and so wants to use such and such card, as long as the group is cool with it, then have at it. i guess the frustration comes from magic online, where the group is much larger...
Yet it caught on and became an official recognized format. There should be at least some effort put forth to help it keeps its definition and level of fun as a format.
Honestly, it sounds to me like you hate any card that is indestructible.
Because my complaint about Ulamog was totally his indestructibility, and because Darksteel Ingot isn't my favorite card out of Darksteel, and because I've never enjoyed having a Kaldra Token with a full Kaldra equip set swinging with a Worldslayer. I love Ingot, I use Ingot... I also use Darksteel Pendant and Solemn Simulacrum in most EDH decks... along with Mystifying Maze, Reliquary Tower, Wayfarer's Bauble, Expedition Map, often Pilgrim's Eye, etc etc etc.
I've constructed a lot of EDH decks, and that is the point. What good is a rule about color restriction when your ~60 nonland cards start becoming 1/5... 1/4... 1/3... 1/2... the same colorless core, almost every single time, regardless of colors. It breaks the definition of the format if you don't actually have to build around the Commander.
Why color-restrict deck construction in the rules if you're not going to put in rules to ENFORCE it via some additional restriction?
I've never even seen someone run Darksteel Pendant in an EDH deck.
It's a pretty obscure common. Reusable cheap indestructible scrying is quite strong, just ask everyone who runs Sensei's Divining Top. Top isn't indestructible, but it can get itself out of harm's way pretty easily, and is run in a ton of decks as such.
My EDH decks with green are always more effective and stronger with Yavimaya Elder over Solemn
I'll leave aside the fact that Solemn actually accelerates and point out you're comparing an efficient artifact with a classic source of massive card advantage IN the home color of the color BEST at such effects. How about your Blue and Red decks? That's my point, it bypasses the color line on efficiency, which in turn progressively subverts the point of EDH: Choosing a General/Commander and building a deck around their COLORS.
The thing i see in most of these threads, about banning cards, is "Waaaa, this guy wins more because I can't afford better cards." I can believe that scenario in a 1v1 setting.
Pricetag and availability are irrelevant to me for whether or not something should be banned (or restricted in some fashion) for being disruptive to or otherwise violating the entire core of the format. Apparently wanting EDH to be EDH and for the color limitation to actually matter to deck construction makes me a "format troll" or something.
I'm sorry, but the OP's rationale for these proposed bans is deeply flawed. Popular utility cards should be banned...because people use them as resources? How dare they?! I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Excessive banning is bad for the format because it's oppressive.
Not at all. Proper restriction, and while I said banning, an imposition like "max 15 artifacts" could produce a very positive effect... however, such a restriction would also pull a different swath of potential generals and deck types out of the format.
In a game of thousands upon thousands of unique cards, banning 1% wouldn't even be noticed... well, unless you were relying on them to excessively bypass color pie limitations. In which case, the issue is you learning to play with the strengths of your color combination, and to play around its weaknesses. The issue isn't "being oppressive", as the presence of these things stifles creativity. You have it backwards, creativity is being oppressed with the format as it is.
Side note, the OP's words and tone suggest that he thinks nobody was discussing the format at all until he decided to grace us with his 21 posts.
I do think I have a unique level of detatchment from being biased, which I feel very very few people can ever bring to a discussion. I'm not going to whine if I can't use a bunch of colorless methods to subvert the color restriction of my commander choices, I would just go about searching for other methods within my chosen colors to compensate for those issues.
Honestly I'd say I've hit pretty close to the mark on what should be done. I know it won't likely be done, because the player base is too attached to using various colorless methods to bypass the entire point of the format... but I am amused by player reactions to this point. And especially the ones where a poster asks if I would axe [insert misc artifact] and I respond with a completely objective and unflinching Yes, especially since the named card is something I likely use myself.
Okay, I've been observing this thread for some time, watching the back and forth. Now, I'm stepping into the ring.
I've played this game since just before Fallen Empires. I've seen a lot of things about this game change, some good, some bad(*coughcough*Phasing*coughcough*). I love it...I'll be sinking money into this game from my hospital bed, I don't doubt it. Some of the rules have bitten me in the a...bdominals, and I've seen loopholes do the same a...bdominal biting.
Now, I could be mistaken, but EDH was probably formed for fun, and easy access for newcomers. That it allows use of any card(aside from those banned) provides strategy on a newer scale(particularly because you can only have one of most cards per deck). Do colorless cards diminish that strategy? I don't see how, it's merely an added layer to the tactics. It's a bypass of the color restrictions? Of course it is...and each and every one of us would do, HAVE DONE, the same in a heartbeat. It's truly no different than using different cards that use the same effect . One proposing sweeping bans should consider the effect such a large-scale change would have on the game and its players as a whole. EDH has been a format where competitive and casual alike can meet together and show each other different things. Many competitive players have learned to relax and enjoy games, and casual players have learned hard-hitting combos that don't require $10-$40 cards(at least, in my neck of the woods, both scenarios have occurred). Consider the recent bannings of Sundering Titan and Griselbrand ; merely two additions to the list divided the boards for some time. How much worse would it be with such a large-scale, drastic update(that most would argue is not even needed)? The format too, would be forever changed...and one would have to be naive to expect that it would ONLY change for the better(I will show my age for one instant: I'm still upset that they got rid of mana burn! lol).
As a final note, each person should be reminded that this is a very fluid format...EDH has core rules, yes...but you are completely welcome to make up your own house rules. If someone wants to have a laundry list of banned cards, go for it! Want to have partial paris mulligans? Who are we to stop you? But as for the rest of us, we'll stick with the official rules(as 'official' as they are, lol).
i agree with chaz. there is one person who in my group that has one of these decks you talk about, but the Eldrazi are not hard to get rid of, infact i find them a great challenge that i can over come (even though he can put them dow with out paying and mana at all thanks to animar )
red on? not an issue my deck i use against this is kaalia of the vast which also means i need not worry about the green as well, plus i use sole ring, everysignet that fits as wells as guilded lotus but for the blue? if i have no cards in hand i am not intimidating to anyone. as well as i need to use my exile target and destroy target creatures on the eldrazi....
but what is even worse than all that is the captain sisay deck, which puts and legendary he wants into his hand ( avacyn ) , then on the field then board wipes ever turn, why? cause he can
i dont normaly use kaalia, its much less fun than my jenara, asura of war cause ill that does is prolferate
