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Switch to Forum Live View Discarding to hidden zones
9 months ago  ::  Aug 29, 2012 - 7:43AM #11
Edriss
Date Joined: Jun 22, 2011
Posts: 115
"unless you discard an artifact card" is a cost, not an effect.


117.12. Some spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities read, “[Do something]. If [a player] [does or doesn’t], [effect].” or “[A player] may [do something]. If [that player] [does or doesn’t], [effect].” The action [do something] is a cost, paid when the spell or ability resolves. The “If [a player] [does or doesn’t]” clause checks whether the player chose to pay an optional cost or started to pay a mandatory cost, regardless of what events actually occurred.

117.12a Some spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities read, “[Do something] unless you [do something else].” This means the same thing as “You may [do something else]. If you don’t, [do something].”

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9 months ago  ::  Aug 29, 2012 - 7:45AM #12
Enigma256
Date Joined: Jul 28, 2010
Posts: 13,856
you're right...
proud member of the 2011 community team
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9 months ago  ::  Aug 29, 2012 - 7:46AM #13
FezzHead
Date Joined: Dec 13, 2011
Posts: 1,652
If a rule were added that any card discarded to pay a cost is revealed as it is discarded, that would potentially solve this issue. Maybe the card would only be revealed if the cost required a certain characteristic.
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9 months ago  ::  Aug 29, 2012 - 8:02AM #14
cyphern
Date Joined: Jan 19, 2003
Posts: 17,663
By the way, this rule was created due to the interaction between library of leng and Chandra Ablaze 's 1st ability (source).
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9 months ago  ::  Aug 29, 2012 - 8:13AM #15
FezzHead
Date Joined: Dec 13, 2011
Posts: 1,652
Ah, that's a trickier situation, since you can legally discard any card.
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9 months ago  ::  Aug 29, 2012 - 12:34PM #16
PirateAmmo
Date Joined: Jul 7, 2010
Posts: 2,157

Aug 29, 2012 -- 7:43AM, Edriss wrote:

"unless you discard an artifact card" is a cost, not an effect.


In is an effect. It is the effect of the resolving spell Wrench Mind .

Library of Leng should reveal the card and put it on top of the library. Every other replacement effect that replaces a card moving to a public zone with moving to a hidden zone reveals the card. For example Darksteel Colossus , Progenitus , Wheel of Sun and Moon .

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9 months ago  ::  Aug 29, 2012 - 1:52PM #17
od256
Date Joined: Apr 2, 2012
Posts: 593

Edriss quoted the rule, and bolded the part that says it is a cost.

Edit: Which raises the questions, "Is it still the effect of the spell?" "Can something be both a cost and an effect at the same time?" 

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9 months ago  ::  Aug 29, 2012 - 2:28PM #18
Nylon
Date Joined: Sep 19, 2008
Posts: 202

Aug 29, 2012 -- 12:34PM, PirateAmmo wrote:

In is an effect. It is the effect of the resolving spell Wrench Mind .


That's correct. Anything that happens as a result of a resolving spell or ability is an effect. Even if it also happens to be a cost.

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9 months ago  ::  Aug 30, 2012 - 3:20AM #19
Edriss
Date Joined: Jun 22, 2011
Posts: 115

Aug 29, 2012 -- 2:28PM, Nylon wrote:

Aug 29, 2012 -- 12:34PM, PirateAmmo wrote:

In is an effect. It is the effect of the resolving spell Wrench Mind .


That's correct. Anything that happens as a result of a resolving spell or ability is an effect. Even if it also happens to be a cost.


The ruling of Library of Leng disagree with you.

You can't use the Library of Leng ability to place a discarded card on top of your library when you discard a card as a cost, because costs aren't effects.




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9 months ago  ::  Aug 30, 2012 - 6:31AM #20
cyphern
Date Joined: Jan 19, 2003
Posts: 17,663

Aug 30, 2012 -- 3:20AM, Edriss wrote:

The ruling of Library of Leng disagree with you.


The ruling is simplistic. Most costs aren't effects, so most of the time that ruling is correct. However, costs and effects are not mutually exclusive. Wrench mind is indeed an example of an effect which is also a cost. Another example which makes it a little clearer that costs and effects can overlap is Mana Leak .

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