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Switch to Forum Live View 8/27/2012 MM: "State of Design 2012"
10 months ago  ::  Aug 24, 2012 - 11:16AM #1
WotC_Monty
Date Joined: Nov 5, 2003
Posts: 1,652
This thread is for discussion of this week's Making Magic, which goes live Monday morning on magicthegathering.com.
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 26, 2012 - 9:25PM #2
crimson_sunrise
Date Joined: Oct 29, 2007
Posts: 241
Mark, thanks for the detailed comments, as always. However, I take issue with

we've created product after product that has sent a clear message that Magic is not just about winning in tournaments





You've promoted play settings outside the tournament events, but you can still do more to promote a casual attitude in general. The problem isn't just that people see Magic as being about winning in tournaments: they see it as being solely about winning, period. There are Commander and Planechase netdecks. There are people who go into forums marked "casual" and get told to switch their favorite cards for powerful things they've never even heard of and that don't fit their Ouphe theme deck, or what have you. The culture needs to change, and it can start with you.

You get lots of credit for the Innistrad block, because gothic horror is literally the last thing I ever would have expected you to do. However, I feel the mechanical constraints of the set made it feel rather small in some cases - there were some horror tropes you had to leave out, and the cards that were "pushed" for constructed play felt even more blatant than in non-top-down sets. Yeah, that's more a development problem than yours, but you asked for feedback, right? Can you tell the development people that Snapcaster Mage should never have been printed as a blue card while you're at it?

   

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10 months ago  ::  Aug 26, 2012 - 9:48PM #3
Ertai87
Date Joined: Jan 20, 2004
Posts: 811
I most certainly began reading this article wholly expecting a self-serving back-patting "we had a good year, let's keep it going!" type of article.  I was pleasantly surprised.  You hit most of the nails right on the head, and you actually pointed out most of the things that you did wrong this past year.  Here are a few comments for you:

1) I simply have to respond to this passage from the article:

Avacyn Restored was a giant success. By what metric? People buying packs. A lot—a LOT—of Avacyn Restored has been sold. So much so that R&D had a meeting to discuss all the things we did right in the set.




The question I always love to ask R&D, and which I have yet to receive an answer to, is: Do you guys really believe that players buy packs because they enjoy the set?  I'm sure there's an element of players who simply must have that fourth Seraph of Dawn or second Avacyn, Angel of Hope, but do you really think that is what sells packs?  Is it more influential than, say, the fact that Bonfire of the Damned is currently approximately $50 AND RISING on most online retailers?  How about the fact that Cavern of Souls was $30 for quite some time (is now around $25)?  Avacyn herself was (is?) $15 for a very long time, and Griselbrand was...well let's say he generated an entire Twitter hashtag all on his own (#griselbanned, for the non-Legacy players in the audience). There are many other examples I could name.  Is it really the "love of the set", and not "the love of the value" that sold the set?

Furthermore, do you truly believe this was a "triumph" in terms of the future of Magic?  Do you believe it's healthy when all the marquee cards in a set cost $10 or more?  When the prices of cards go up, the barrier to entry goes up as well...

2) You failed to mention the #1 most important card for older formats printed in the last...well, probably since the Zendikar Fetchlands.  That being, of course, Delver of Secrets.  Do you feel Delver was a triumph or a failure on the part of R&D?  Is the tournament popularity of Delver a hint of future things to come, or a hint of things R&D will seek to avoid from now on?

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10 months ago  ::  Aug 26, 2012 - 10:03PM #4
Leo-tech
Date Joined: Oct 23, 2011
Posts: 62
I just wanted to say thanks for realizing the mistakes you made last year that were really a letdown after you got us all pumped up with Innistrad's greatness. Just a thought though, when you're creating a top down set filled with flavor and the potential for a wonderful story, don't let your creative team slack off as time wears on. Innistrad presented the plane's story wonderfully...but Dark Ascension didn't live up to the excitement I had received seeing Sorin's picture as the cover of the set. The real problem though, wasn't the lack of awesomeness in Dark Ascension (in comparison to it's predecessor) but instead the sheer failure of good writing and story for Avacyn Restored. Looking back, I was so excited for Innistrad when it came out, and it did not disappoint. But, when the following sets released, I became less and less compelled to love the story as it became incomparable to Innistrad's glory. By the time the article came out describing how Avacyn was freed and how Grislebrand was killed, I could only conclude that 1. Sorin's presence was pointless 2. Garruk didn't do anything important 3.Lili's battle with Grislebrand was anticlimactic 4.numerous other characters were underused. And when the set was released these things disappointed me further 1.No legendary one-sided werewolf as described when Innistrad originally came out as forever trapped in his werewolf form (though you've already apologized for this) 2.there was but one Gryff 3.only two Wolfir 4.this was just pretty much the realization that all that I had hoped might magically appear in the last set and make everything better after Dark Ascension  didn't rank with Innistrad, didn't

Ok, that was more than just a thought, but it all revolves around basically the same idea: Top down=better flavor, better story, better synergy between cards and story. Just remember that next time you plan on "returning to Innistrad."
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 26, 2012 - 10:06PM #5
Astronautic_Bullfrog
Date Joined: May 17, 2009
Posts: 86
Ertai's comment brought up a point I hadn't considered. How much does a Standard competitve deck cost now compared to 10 years ago? Or how about 5? I know Wizards likes Mythic rares, and yes, they have to sell packs, but it seems to me that costs are rising prohibitively.

For once, I would really like a clear and honest communication from a Wizards employee about their views on what the price structure of the secondary market should be. Sure, supply and demand is what drives it and they have no immediate control over singles prices, but it sure would be good to clear the air on the topic for all the frustrated Spikes who can't afford to play their favorite game competitively (myself among them).

Almost every single article posted on the mothership gets a complaint like mine or Ertai87's on the cost of playing the game we're addicted to, yet NEVER do we get even an acknowledgment of the issue from the powers that be. 

C'mon Wizards, at least throw us a bone.
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 26, 2012 - 10:09PM #6
Thalatta
Date Joined: Apr 16, 2011
Posts: 151
Avacyn Restored *was* a giant success; people are still buying packs not just because of the chase money cards, but because there are a lot of very cool flavorful cards, if that's what you're interested in - especially if you like angels. Soulbond was something that I think appealed to a lot of players, too, even if it was...confusing, at first. :P

However, I think your comment about Delver is spot on. I do not believe that Goal #3 of Prove that Double-Faced Cards Work was achieved - at ALL. People are playing checklist cards in their constructed decks, and as much "cool factor" as there was to the cards, it was *too* gimmicky to be practical, and it just got more and more annoying as the draft season went on. I kept winning with R/G decks throughout the format, so one time I *intentionally* drafted as few werewolves as possible just so that I wouldn't have to deal with the damn things.

Not to mention that Delver is still warping formats. He's technically not overpowered, but he's a strict upgrade in various archtypes and as a result blue-based aggro-control is everywhere. Had the guy been printed as a 2/2 or 3/1 flyer he probably would still be a tournament staple, but manageable.


Oh, and I didn't even see a mention of Snapcaster. Between Mr. Soh and Jace, I haven't played blue in constructed for the last few years. >_<
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 26, 2012 - 10:11PM #7
Tap4Mana
Date Joined: Sep 21, 2010
Posts: 606
I think the last goal for 2013 is going to be a tricky one.  a SMALL set with 10 multicolored pairings, 10 mechanics all fighting for attention? It seems to me that either giving none of the guilds enough attention,  would be almost unavoidable without risking the set's overall balance.

Also, one of the biggest things that would improve on Ravnica is not to be as slavish to the structure of the guilds and the cycles with the cards.  Instead of giving each guild a this, a that, and so on, keep the essense of the guilds alive in the cards through creative design and flavorful mechanics without designing the set too rigidly that things become predictable.
~ Current Decks I'm Playing or Building ~
(Click a deck's name to see list)
[] CorpseJunk Menace/Township Counters (Standard)
[] Reanimation/Clerics Theme Deck - Commander: Ghost Dad
[] Devouring Tokens (Planechase, Multiplayer)
[Krark-Clan Ironworks: 2012 Edition (Modern)
[] Azorious Turbo Fog (Modern)


   
   
   
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 26, 2012 - 10:17PM #8
rickster_
Date Joined: May 20, 2012
Posts: 27

Aug 26, 2012 -- 9:48PM, Ertai87 wrote:

The question I always love to ask R&D, and which I have yet to receive an answer to



Aug 26, 2012 -- 10:06PM, Astronautic_Bullfrog wrote:

Almost every single article posted on the mothership gets a complaint like mine or Ertai87's on the cost of playing the game we're addicted to, yet NEVER do we get even an acknowledgment of the issue from the powers that be. 

C'mon Wizards, at least throw us a bone.



Why not post on Maro's Tumblr? He actually answers questions on there.

markrosewater.tumblr.com/

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10 months ago  ::  Aug 26, 2012 - 10:18PM #9
JackOfAllParades
Date Joined: Aug 28, 2007
Posts: 14
Hi!  I love magic.  Thanks for you article and all that you do.  I cannot wait for Return to Ravnica.  

For me Innistrad was a miss.  I became obsessed with Magic around Mirrodin block.  But every so often I take a block off.  This pattern started during Time Spiral.  For many of the reasons you have written about before, Time Spiral made me stay home.  I didn't buy packs and I stopped playing.  When Alara came around I jumped back in.  It's interesting that you are proudest of Innistrad and the last four years.  If I had to name my favorite blocks of the modern era I would probably say Ravnica, Lorwynn/Shadowmoor, Alara, and Mirrodin Besieged - largely because of the stellar New Phyrexia.

I was excited about a gothic horror set, but when previews came out for Innistrad I immediatelly knew I was out.  The reason:  Double face cards.  In my view they simply violate a basic principle of card game functionality.  The cards you draw are the cards you are able to play and your opponent can't tell what cards you are holding.  Double face cards don't work.  Having a sneaky checklist card that lets everyone know what other card you are really holding that actually wouldn't work in the game if you shuffled into your deck violates some basic threshold of design elegance that I can't get past.  A thing should do what it does.

I have enjoyed reading about the set on the website and checking out the cards on line.  But I haven't bought any.  Because I don't want any double faced cards.  I'm sure I'm in the minority.  This is not a rant.  If other people liked them, I get it, it's cool.  But please don't dismiss my two cents.  I am really really into magic.  I have a huge collection of cards, I read all your articles,  I love to build decks, I introduce new players to the game all the time.  I'm mostly happy about where the game is headed.  But I think it's worth letting you know that one of the things you consider one of your top successes of the year, I consider a failure. 

Thanks for your article.  Looking forward to a great year of magic in Ravnica!


 
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 26, 2012 - 10:20PM #10
Chiisairamen
Date Joined: Aug 27, 2012
Posts: 2
First time poster, but I've always kept an eye on DailyMTG form Sunday night to Thursday night ever since I got back to playing the game from a long hiatus (started at Tempest block, quit and returned during Scars block)

I made an account, went through 3 failed captchas, and went through that mandatory profile setup. Just so i can post and raincheck.

Because I do NOT think avacyn restored is successfull only because of the reasons listed in the article. Heck I think its not even MAJORLY because of them.

Bonfire is 42
Caverns is 18
Restoration Angels are  10

These are the reasons a lot of people in my LGS buy tons and tons of packs. When they win FNM, they pick AVR, when Me and my friends buy each other packs for each others bday its AVR. The casuals, and I play both casually and tournament since the casuals do some fun EDHing when I need a competetive break, they look for EDH viables and AVR has very little outside Griselbrand.

Competetively I mostly play draft and AVR is ATROCIOUS in draft. It becomes a pull-fest where the game hinges way too much you either pull good packs or not because of the unusually vast amount of unusable cards in ratio to usable cards. This as opposed to innistrad where you can draft a theme via dredge, or whatever you want because the majority of the cards are usables.


So sorry but I would like to voice my opinion to maybe bring you guys back down to earth and realize that like the poster above said, the price to make a deck is a barrier of entry. Avacyn Restored is not helping here. I stopped FNMing as often as I used to because my choices are limited heavily because most viable decks require a bonfire in it.
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