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Switch to Forum Live View 8/27/2012 MM: "State of Design 2012"
9 months ago  ::  Aug 27, 2012 - 7:32AM #31
mtgraptor
Date Joined: Aug 19, 2007
Posts: 439
next up 3-faced cards
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9 months ago  ::  Aug 27, 2012 - 7:41AM #32
seydaneen
Date Joined: Apr 1, 2006
Posts: 641
I still believe it is the competitive play not casual that drives the sales up
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9 months ago  ::  Aug 27, 2012 - 8:57AM #33
Fireballmage
Date Joined: Mar 21, 2012
Posts: 242

Aug 27, 2012 -- 7:41AM, seydaneen wrote:

I still believe it is the competitive play not casual that drives the sales up


So what happened with Time Spiral block?

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9 months ago  ::  Aug 27, 2012 - 9:59AM #34
AlexaM
Date Joined: Jul 23, 2009
Posts: 283
Chiming in as one of the people who really didn't like AVR (and I don't even draft!) Flavorwise, I like the idea of making the third set different, but I think you guys are pushing that too far. Mark, you talk a lot about creating and preserving familiarity -- and then you munge with it in a huge way. I don't think that worked in AVR. I didn't feel like the victory was amazing or impressive flavorwise, and I wondered deckwise why so little seemed to work with established themes. It just felt like "where'd these angels all come from?"

Contrast this with Scars block, where there was a progression that made sense (and whose end was a little too obvious, but even though I knew just from the "faction percentage" shift who would win it was still exciting.) You got to see things change. With AVR it was a trend and a dramatic reversal -- with nothing to make the reversal feel epic. Even though the biggest chase card is a miracle, for example, it's not "Holy Judgment Flames," it's "Bonfire of the Damned" -- still associated with the bad guys. The bad guys are still EPIC COOL... and the good guys are... a bunch of angels (okay, okay, Restoration is pretty amazing. But without the flavor of a good story to tell us who she's restorating and why it matters, she doesn't resonate with me.

Even Rise of the Eldrazi, which I also found disorientingly dizzying after ZEN and WWK, worked better, because I didn't just get hints the hedrons would open, I also had a mystery to solve: what ARE those things? Clearly they matter for something. What they were turned out to be a major, paradigm-shifting deal. That was cool, even if I liked the previous flavor better.

Where with the Helvault, well, for one it had been done before (powerful being trapped in rock -- no, that's not ROE plot-borrowing, not at all) and for two, it wasn't mysterious. No, we didn't always know Ava and Gris were in there. But the revelation isn't quite the same earth-shaking one as HOLY COW, CTHULHU AND THERE ARE THREE OF THEM DANG. It's angels and demons. We've seen angels and demons.

Which means if you're choosing to do angels and demons, you have to really be resonant. And the Innistrad angels didn't manage that, and even the demons lost their coolness points because it was all so rushed. Sorin had this important mission that you cared about, this whole thing that set him apart from his kind... and then wait whoops they're both out, that's that. So many threads of story just... evaporating. All hail the angels. Sure.

Now part of this is that I'm a villain-fan most of the time, so I'd skew more to the flavor of something like NPH than to the flavor of something like AVR. But I don't hate good heroes. And this time around you didn't give us any good heroes. You gave us Sorin and made him really intriguing, and then made nothing of it all. You gave us Avacyn, but all she does is lead an angelic army. That's pretty cool... but only if you MAKE it cool. Make us care. Make us like them.

Somehow that didn't happen, and it's especially jarring when INN and DKA were so full of rich, intriguing flavor. Yeah, horror tropes -- but somehow you brought them to life in ways you didn't bring to life any "angel tropes" in AVR.

(One suggestion I have for this, paradoxically enough, is to have DFCs in. I would have gotten the "darkness loses its hold" feel from the angels and the soulbonding everywhere. Some noticeable unredeemed monsters would have made me feel "okay, the good guys are winning, but that doesn't mean there aren't interesting story-threads for the monsters who remain. Are they lonely? Are they bitter? Are they wishing they could become what they once were, or do they become wantons, enraged at the purification that passed them over?" THAT's story.)
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9 months ago  ::  Aug 27, 2012 - 10:50AM #35
Belzebozo
Date Joined: Oct 17, 2010
Posts: 30
I'm going to hit the points I can first:

Fenix. & Leo-tech's point about the story is huge. Innistrad and Dark Ascenstion set up these great conflicts and then...nothing mattered. At all. Sorin disappears, Liliana and Garruk have the most boring fight ever and woo, angels. For a top-down set to blow the 3rd act so badly is really, really unfortunate.

Multiple posters have suggested that AVR has sold well because of the power rarities in it and I'm inclined to agree with them. As with players playing the Jace lottery in Worldwake, so a similar thing can be done here. Plus with themes that appeal to casual players, you can work a 2 for 1: win the lottery, casual player! Who doesn't want that? Yet, I don't believe it's the hallmark of an excellent set.

JackOfAllParades on DFC is one I'm also in agreement with. I've said it before and I am still there: DFC are a screw up on multiple levels, emphasizing how something 'feels' over how it 'works'. So for the people who like how DFC feels, they will be very vocal and for those who are grinding through the workings, we know that it's gone soon.  On top of that, a mechanic that you cannot control (werewolf triggers) crippled two colors for a majority of the block, with r/g getting the shaft. That's awful. Still, when it's the hook for the block, it has to be everywhere, which leads me to my next point:

Amarsir's point about DFC introduction. Cycles matter!
 Of COURSE people grumbled when the flagship mechanic of the block wasn't put into the 3rd set. AlexaM had something on this too and this is where I will start talking for myself....

It's got to be hugely challenging to design sets for people--they are fickle and shout about what they want but they rarely know what they REALLY want until it's given to them. I sympathize with the challenges to doing this and I know you can't make all the people happy all the time. 
 
Yet repeatedly in your column you've told us how important cycles are. How players love them, expect them and how R&D has to be very careful about when and how they fulfill those desires, in addition to when they decide to break them.

But with nearly every 'miss' this year, the root cause of that has been a failure to design proper cycles! No werewolves, no human captain, no green curse: these are all blown because there weren't cycles and we expect those now. 


I don't believe that this block was awful: from a flavor perspective, it really did do quite a few things very, very well. Especially when it came to art and flavor text. Beyond that, I will say that it gave me less to be interested in and I think that it really didn't execute the kinds of tropes it was trying to in a Magic way. Prime example: why are blue zombies feeding on creatures? I know why black zombies would but shouldn't the blue ones have removed instants/sorceries from your graveyard? 

It also fed into what seems to be true about Magic: Blue decks rise to the top. Year after year of that is boring. That said, with M13, I am very, very interested this year to see if something like, say a R/B deck is the big cheese for a year. 

Return to Ravnica has a lot of weight put on it, unfortunately. I'm going to do my best to judge it for what it is, not for what Ravnica was.
 
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9 months ago  ::  Aug 27, 2012 - 11:02AM #36
chronego
Date Joined: Jul 6, 2011
Posts: 1,274
Okay, this is probably going to be my longest post ever, because I have a lot to say on this subject. I'll be using spoiler blocks to make it more manageable.

The fact that Avacyn Restored is, apparently, a financial success absolutely depresses me. I loathe that set; I hate everything about that set. I wanted that set to fail so badly that you'd never consider doing anything like it again. And while you do admit in your article to some of the faults of the set, you still seem to have completely missed the point. So, without further ado, I present to you "Why Avacyn Restored is the worst Magic set in recent times":

Block Continuity Show
Yes, you touch on this in your article, but the fact that you consider it more successful than Rise of the Eldrazi is telling. Mark, it's not about "returning keywords" (your comment that "maybe we should have reused a second keyword, maybe flashback" shows that you don't understand this concept in the slightest). It's about theme. It's about how the set feels. And in this regard, Rise of the Eldrazi does it a lot better.

First, though, let me touch on the story. Rise of the Eldrazi was the culmination of the block story. Everything up to that point was building to what happened in Rise of the Eldrazi. Things were progressing with an undeniable inevitability to the events of the third set. We visited a world of danger, saw things get worse, and then saw the reason those things were acting that way. Rise of the Eldrazi was a true climax to the story of the Zendikar block.

Avacyn Restored, on the other hand, was a complete reversal. Everything in the first two sets was indicating a rise of evil. The events of Dark Ascension, where humanity was on the brink of extinction, indicated that, even if humanity somehow pulled through, they'd get, at best, a pyrrhic victory. And then Avacyn Restored brought the worst deus ex machina I've ever seen in fiction. It was a subversion of the story. It wasn't the fact that the good guys won; that could have been done well, and made for a great story. It was the fact that they won so absolutely, and so easily. Avacyn Restored was an anti-climax to the story of the Innistrad block.

Now, back to the thematic disconnect. Rise of the Eldrazi, even though it dropped the mechanics of the Zendikar block, did still play into its themes. The first two sets told us that land matters, and rewarded us for playing more land; the third set then came along and made use of all that extra mana we had laying around, with giant Eldrazi and leveling creatures. I won't say it wasn't a disconnect: it was. All I'm saying is, it still felt like it belonged in the same block as "land-matters".

Avacyn Restored, however, dropped all of the themes of the block. Monster tribal became "angels and demons"; graveyard matters disappeared entirely, and nothing in AVR plays into the same theme; sacrifice and death triggers, too, were gone, and in fact you removed most of the removal of the set so that Morbid was weaker for the inclusion of that set in the block. Yes, you included a few token representatives of all the monster tribes (except werewolves), but then again, Rise of the Eldrazi did have some kor and vampires to play into those tribal themes. Yes, you brought back Undying, but that was the most modular keyword of the lot; including it didn't actually tie the set to the block in any way.

What I'm saying is, Avacyn Restored absolutely, undeniably failed to be connected to the rest of its block. It's not even a partial success, as you attribute it as being; it was even more of a disconnect than Rise of the Eldrazi. When next you do a Large/Small/Large block, don't just include some token cards for "decks from the previous sets" and return "two keywords this time, guys!". Actually make it connected to the themes of the block!


The prerelease Show
All the negative feedback you got for the Helvault Event must have tipped you off that you messed up here, but I still want to include it for two reasons: One, you didn't touch on it at all in the article; and Two, for the sake of completion of this "everything wrong with AVR" post.

First, without even touching on the horrible idea of "premium Helvaults", let me say that the idea of the Helvault experience was flawed from the start. The achievements cards were a neat idea, but the reward for doing them was pointless. It was extra swag, equal for each person who participated. As in, you could have just included the oversized card, die and token as part of the door prize for showing up and it wouldn't have been any different. Besides, the "you have to work to open the Helvault and earn your prize" thing was folly; like any store was going to return the unopened Helvault to you if they didn't manage to break all the seals.

And, of course, I have to at least mention the "premium Helvaults" thing. The sheer disparity in value, coupled with the nonrandom distribution, is a humongous marketing failure on your part. It demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of human psychology. Bad job, Wizards.


Limited Show
I don't draft, so I don't have much to say. I just wanted to include it because, you know, completion.

Everything I've heard about this set (and the article confirms it) indicates that AVR is a terrible set to draft. Bad job.


Miracles Show
These ramp up the variance of the game far too much. Any time I hear about a deck winning a tournament because it top-decked a Miracle to close the game, I can't help but think that the victory wasn't truly earned, even if the deck and the player piloting it were both brilliant. I can't help but think that because of the nature of Miracles: if they hadn't top-decked that Miracle at that time, would they still have won?

You reward the incredibly swingy nature of top-decking with extremely undercosted cards. That's a step in the wrong direction. The game has already degenerated into "who spends the most money wins"; do you really want to give the signal to your audience that you also want it to turn into a "luck into your victories" thing?

Honestly, this has been done to death, so I'm moving on.


Soulbond Show
The only thing in the entire set that I actually like. The only thing you did right. Moving on.


Angels and Demons Show
Okay, angels and demons are both cool because of their rarity. They are cool because they're not a common thing; if you see an angel, it's supposed to feel epic and special. By making "angels vs demons" your theme, and thus printing a glut of them, you water down that coolness. You make the special and powerful into something mundane. It also means your other three colors don't get to play into your set's theme, at all. That's just a bad idea.

I love angels, but seeing that many of them in one set has actually made me hate them. That's not a good sign.


Loner Show
Seriously, after an entire block of "Black is Evil, White is Good", thus setting back any notion that Black can be heroic and White can be villainous, you worsen things by indicating that Black doesn't play well with others. That's just ridiculous.

You made the theme of one of the colors (consequently, my favorite color) into something that players don't want to do. "Hey, build decks that want to only play one creature", you say, to which we reply "That doesn't sound fun at all". It also, as you indicated, screws with Limited. And color balance. It was just a terrible idea. Moving on.


Mythic rares Show
Ahh, the crux of things. This has already been hit on in the forum here, quite a few times, but since I'm chronicling everything wrong with Avacyn Restored (which is to say, everything about it) in this post, I'm including a blurb about it.

Wow, what great design skills you have. You demonstrate that making a card more powerful than anything you can get at lower rarities sells packs. That's clever of you. It must take real skill to win people over with overpowered cards, as opposed to clever or interesting designs, or fun gameplay.

Seriously, though, it continues to degenerate year after year. You guys keep ramping up your mythic rares. I wish you'd stop, but at this point there's no indication that you even consider it a problem.

As others have suggested, these power mythics could even be a large part of whythe set sold so well. I honestly hope this is the case, because it would restore my faith in humanity that they bought such a horrible, crappy set for a logical reason: you gave them no choice if they wanted to stay competitive.

Every Griselbrand played in a Legacy deck is 120 booster packs. Every Restoration Angel is 60 packs. Maybe you shouldn't pat yourself on the back just yet, until you're sure that this wasn't the case.


Legendary Werewolf Show
You failed to complete a cycle. How dreadful.

You also screwed up a cycle in M13, by the way. Nefarox costs six but every other legend costs four. Seriously, bad job on cycles lately.


The Story Show
Last but not least, the absolute worst thing about the set of Avacyn Restored. I hit on this earlier, on how it was an anti-climax and a deus-ex-machina, two things that good storytelling should always strive to avoid. But the problems go beyond that. Avacyn Restored is riddled with plot holes, dropped plot threads, smaller anti-climaxes, and just general disappointment.

I know that it's hard to tell a story now that you've discontinued the novel line, but seriously? This was the best you guys could do? If Creative weren't still coasting on their laurels for having built such an amazing world in Innistrad, I'd suggest you fire them all. AVR was an absolute disaster creatively, and the entire Creative Team should feel ashamed for ever letting this thing out the door in its current form. The articles on this site were laughably bad, with such classics as "Even though we said most angels went into hiding when Avacyn disappeared, now we're saying that all three Flights "doubled their efforts" to protect humanity in her absence" and "let's make the fight between Liliana and Griselbrand amount to 'and then she killed him' and nothing else" and "I know we painted Sorin as important to the story, but let's not do a darned thing with him"... the list goes on.

As much as I hate the design and development (and marketing) of this set, I feel like the Creative Team are the ones who did the worst job. And that's saying a lot for a set as dreadful at this one.


So in conclusion, everything that could have gone wrong with this set did so. It succeeded in undoing all of the goodwill earned from Innistrad, which, considering it was possibly the best set you've ever done, is no small feat. After this disaster, you can't afford a single mistake for quite some time.

Unfortunately, M13 was a major let-down for me. It was far too random, with too many themes and subthemes running around; it didn't feel cohesive. It also failed to live up to my expectations of what makes a core set; that is to say, it didn't include the staple effects of each color (you seriously got rid of Shock ? What the heck? And Giant Growth still isn't back?) This means you really need to hit it out of the ballpark with Return to Ravnica.

Unfortunately, from what I've seen so far, that doesn't seem likely to happen. Oh sure, using keywords with limited design space for the guild keywords makes sense; you have to include five in each set, and all ten in the final set. But that's not really a way to impress your players. If all ten keywords are going to be shallow, then I really don't think there will be much for someone like me, who loves the game for its depth and complexity (New World Order, by the way, has seriously decreased my enjoyment of the game as well).

I don't want to be so trite as to say "I'm quitting Magic", but, well, I don't have much choice. If Avacyn Restored is a financial success, and if that's the direction you're going to start taking this game, then there is nothing left for me to enjoy. This may well be where we part ways.

Take care, Mark.
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9 months ago  ::  Aug 27, 2012 - 11:53AM #37
kristijanH
Date Joined: Dec 25, 2009
Posts: 1,072
I agree with chronego on a lot of points almost all.

I'm hoping that AVR was only sold alot in comparison to other third sets in a block. In comparison to ROE (the only other big set) I suppose better sales can be expected. In comparisson to any other small set it's also plausable that it sold better but if they compared let's say INN and it sold more boosters - I am very worried about the future magic sets.

I cannot understand why AVR would sell good except for the high(er) number of chase rares/mythics but even that worries me.

Will future sets be filled with story loop holes, play bad in limited and be disconected with other sets while have more expensive cards? I hope not. 

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9 months ago  ::  Aug 27, 2012 - 12:19PM #38
JanusAurelius
Date Joined: Sep 1, 2009
Posts: 54
Chronego, you nailed exactly what I was trying to say about creative in this set. I just wished they hadn't screwed up such an amazing one, because Innistrad was looking to be my second favorite set of all time. I rally hope Maro reads this and sees how important the story is to players.
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9 months ago  ::  Aug 27, 2012 - 12:24PM #39
JanusAurelius
Date Joined: Sep 1, 2009
Posts: 54
I can't edit, because I'm writing all this on my phone, by I would like to see an  addressing the creative complaints.
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9 months ago  ::  Aug 27, 2012 - 1:03PM #40
Xactiphyn
Date Joined: Apr 19, 2005
Posts: 76
Clearly, Avacyn Restored should have had a legendary, single-sided werewolf.  That would have solved multiple problems with a single card.  "The Last Werewolf", stuck in form, would have been quite flaverfull, as well.
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