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10 months ago ::
Aug 22, 2012 - 10:44AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jul 24, 2010
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Okay so with the expansion it looks like there will be some of those "Opponent chooses between A & B" type cards (i.e. Vexing Devil  ) which usually just gets resolved for whatever is the lesser of two evils at the time. Turn one devils? Usually taking the 4 damage rather than putting the 4/3 on turn one on board. Later game, lower hp, good board presence? Probably avoid the damage and put the creep down. NBD. But recently I realized some other situations come up in the game where the opponent faces very difficult decisions and I think I know what I'd do, and when opponent doesn't I usually go "Yes. Thank you." or something inside my head. Case in point: I've turned my Elvish Visionary  into a Terastodon  turn 4 so many times recently through Natural Order  I can't even believe it. I always target my opponent's lands reducing them to either 1 or 0 lands on field. They now have 3x 3/3 elephant tokens vs my 9/9 single elephant. Every game I've done this my opponent chooses to triple block my 9/9 with all 3 tokens. This is what I've always considered my ideal outcome as I've essentially traded a 1/1 elf and 4cmc to do a one-sided land wipe. I always wonder why they don't buy more time but keep some board presence with the potentially dangerous tokens. Now, it depends on deck and hand, sure. If it's Garruk I'm facing, the trade is probably ideal. But it happens vs so many ppl that have so many other ways to deal with the 9/9 ( Unsummon  , Disperse  , Murder  etc. etc.) for 3 or less mana. Granted I just wiped them and granted I don't see their hand but I think unless I'm royally screwed in my hand with zero more mana or no cheap removal/bounce I'd rather chump, even with a token or two, until I can remove the threat and then I still have 1 or 2 3/3s out of it. What do you guys think? Have any of you had similar situations where there's no good just a less bad option for either you or opponent and what was the decision and why? EDIT: Sidenote, I just realized the way the Portal version of Natural Order is worded seems to indicate you could like Pay 4 mana, search for Thragtusk  on an empty field, gain 5 life, then sac it and get the 3/3. The rulings and Visions version clearly state that sacrificing is part of the cost, but yea that's weird that the Portal text is so out of touch.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 22, 2012 - 10:59AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Sep 16, 2011
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I think triple blocking Terastodon is usually the right play. If you did wipe out all their lands, by the time they get three lands down to play Murder , for example, you could have two additional creatures down. It's better to kill the 9/9 while you can, then deal with whatever may or may not come. Edit: I think a difficult decision with Terastodon is choosing to destroy only 2 lands vs. 3. If you only destroy 2, then they only have 2 tokens and can't kill your 9/9.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 22, 2012 - 11:21AM
#3
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Triple-blocking is indeed what I'd do as well. After all, the damage has been done already. 9 damage is not something you can let through twice (2 life is extremely dangerous and allows your opponent to practically decide your moves for you), so what happens when you let it go through the first time? You're probably forced to keep your tokens untapped and triple-block it next turn (AKA you let 9 damage go through for absolutely nothing at all), or you're going to chump-block it everytime (AND waste a kill spell) which makes you lose even more, relatively speaking.
And as said: the damage has been done already. 3 3/3's are equal to a 9/9 (this can vary depending on the deck. Swarm decks and defensive decks, like Krenko and Jace, prefer to have many weaklings over just 1 strong one), so the triple-block move itself loses you nothing (though of course, it also gains you nothing).
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10 months ago ::
Aug 22, 2012 - 11:28AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jul 24, 2010
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Triple-blocking is indeed what I'd do as well. After all, the damage has been done already. 9 damage is not something you can let through twice (2 life is extremely dangerous and allows your opponent to practically decide your moves for you), so what happens when you let it go through the first time? You're probably forced to keep your tokens untapped and triple-block it next turn (AKA you let 9 damage go through for absolutely nothing at all), or you're going to chump-block it everytime (AND waste a kill spell) which makes you lose even more, relatively speaking.
And as said: the damage has been done already. 3 3/3's are equal to a 9/9 (this can vary depending on the deck. Swarm decks and defensive decks, like Krenko and Jace, prefer to have many weaklings over just 1 strong one), so the triple-block move itself loses you nothing (though of course, it also gains you nothing).
You don't have to let it through. You can still chump it with any creatures you played over first 3 turns OR a single elephant. You could block with just elephants for 3 consecutive turns even if you didn't have any other creatures less valuable than a 3/3 token to chump with. The way I see it. many decks will have a way to get rid of my 9/9 before they lose all 3 tokens. I agree the real damage is done, you're behind 3 turns in mana, it stinks, but I'm saying if you're that behind you might want some board position.
As for only killing 2 lands not 3 to help protect my 9/9, I disagree with that. If opponent went first that leaves them w/ 2 lands and 2/3 mana in most decks have a way to kill my 9/9 outright. Even if they went second they still have 1 land and still, 2 mana has a lot of ways to deal with my 9/9.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 22, 2012 - 11:34AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Aug 27, 2010
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In the Terastadon situation, I think there's a lot that goes into how you handle it, if you have 3 3/3's vs the 9/9. I think most people will just triple-block, not because it's the best play, but it's the simplest.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 22, 2012 - 11:40AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2012
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I agree with Scary here. Trading is the worst thing you can do. Don't forget that you too have 9 power in the board. And 90% of the time 3 3/3 are better than 1 9/9. The best thing you can do here is a race for damage. And we all now here who's in advantage in this race (hint: the guy with more creatures). To be honest, I don't run Terestodon  and I don't like the case in point play exactly because of the points I listed above. If I was the one playing it, The best play for me would be blowing 2 of my opponent's lands and one of mine. This way I gained advantage in tempo and gained double the power.
WotC doesn't care about flavor. Their forum is the only place where an ORC can kill a troll...
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10 months ago ::
Aug 22, 2012 - 12:00PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jul 31, 2011
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Respond to ETB trigger with a murder  that'd be funny. Just saying...
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10 months ago ::
Aug 22, 2012 - 12:06PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jul 24, 2010
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I agree with Scary here. Trading is the worst thing you can do. Don't forget that you too have 9 power in the board. And 90% of the time 3 3/3 are better than 1 9/9. The best thing you can do here is a race for damage. And we all now here who's in advantage in this race (hint: the guy with more creatures). To be honest, I don't run Terestodon and I don't like the case in point play exactly because of the points I listed above. If I was the one playing it, The best play for me would be blowing 2 of my opponent's lands and one of mine. This way I gained advantage in tempo and gained double the power.
That's exactly my thought process. Yes, I've taken 3 of your lands, but I've given you 9/9 in power/toughness spread over 3 creatures. Individually, a 3/3 is nothing to sneeze at. Multiplied by 3 and that's a serious threat. Yes I've got 1 9/9 but it's usually far easier to deal with a single 9/9 than 3x 3/3. Also, if I'm keeping back my 9/9 to block you can get through 9 damage over the next two turns as turn 1, my 9/9 kills one 3/3 I take 6. Turn two, it kills a second I take 3. Now flip it. If you keep all 3 tokens to block, it would take me 4 turns in the same situation to get to the same point damage wise. Yea my board look a lot prettier my turn 3 if I've got a 9/9 vs your 3/3, but I'm also down almost 50% my total life and this isn't a vacuum, you can probably get rid of my 9/9.
I'm scared every time I play it, but I've gotten bolder about it since everyone seems to just trade. Like I've said, I've got no problem essentially sacrificing a vanilla 9/9 body for 4cmc to kill your 3 lands on turn 4. With my +3 mana I'm probably going to gain board position first anyway so why not hold onto the tokens a bit?
I should say I don't think there's a solid right or wrong answer here. I can see it both ways and I don't think either situation is a favorable one for my opponent, but if I did I wouldn't ever play Terastodon .
In fact I only play Terastodon in essentially 3 situations: 1) the above described turn 4 play to dramatically slow down an opponent; 2) late game, hard cast and destroy 3x my own land to get 18 power/toughness spread over 4 bodies on the field, esp. if I have a Taunting Elf  or Overrun  ; 3) I desperately need to remove some non-creature permanent/s on the field...like desperately- I'm about to die to Underworld Dreams  or Sulfuric Vortex  in next two turns, I can't break double Silent Arbiter  or get around Worship  etc. In those situations I'm praying for Acidic Ooze  or Beast Within  but yea I'll play Terastodon if need be (I don't think I've done it yet, but I would if I needed to).
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10 months ago ::
Aug 22, 2012 - 12:09PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jul 24, 2010
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Respond to ETB trigger with a murder that'd be funny. Just saying...
There's that too, but I wouldn't do that play vs black with 3 free lands open. I also won't do it against Jace as the can land drop and Unsummon and then I'm screwed. I fetch Gigantomancer  vs Jace. If he stays on board til my next attack phase I profit. Even if they bounce him, I can respond to bounce with making some weenies 7/7.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 22, 2012 - 12:21PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Aug 21, 2011
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Probably my favorite 2HG combo is Talrand/Yeva. I've pulled turn 4 Terastodon's a lot, and the enemies triple blocking next turn is probably the most predictable move in DotP, and in my opinion, the ideal outcome for me. Opponent's with three 3/3's is potentially problematic, so, as has been stated before, I'd happily trade that Terastodon for their creatures. Now they're down three lands and significant board presence for only four mana. This is made even better by playing with Talrand, so that when they triple block Terastodon, as they almost invariably do, we can just Repulse  one. Boom, they're down three lands, few if any creatures on board, we have a 9/9 and got a great value cantrip. This play has resulted in more quits than I can count.
Bring on the singularity. 
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