I will explain to all of you why Vintage is a bad format and why the other formats outthere are all better.
Do you play Vintage Zokorad?
Can you honestly tell me that it does not make sense that black lotus was restricted, along side ancestral recall? Could you imagine 4 of each in a vintage deck? I think it stands to reason why those cards were restricted a long time ago and it has not made sense to un-restrict them since.
Prohibitive cost is about the only argument you have going for you here.
Just playing devil's advocate here.
In an environment where everyone had access to the same cards, luck is equal on most levels and deck construction isn't straight forward. In a perfect world, of course.
I'm sure the vets around here could give you a better idea of the format, as I only own the cards and have not played the format competitively in a long time.
MTGS would probably be a better place to discuss this stuff though, as their vintage community is bigger.
As a Vintage veteran, all of your arguments, despite being trolling, are so incorrect that I feel I must respond. Sorry for giving you the response you're trolling for.
Cost is not an issue in Vintage. I went undefeated in a Mox Ruby-prize tournament with a $50 deck. I beat 2 U/B Storm decks, another MUD deck, and the Fish deck that had won the last major event.
Luck is not a factor, either in inconsistencies or turn 2 wins. Vintage games consistently go past turn 6-7. They do. Turn 1 combo decks get stopped by the omnipresent Force of Will, or by Sphere of Resistance, or by Cabal Therapy or Mindbreak Trap or Stifle or Flusterstorm or Thalia or Trinisphere or Lodestone Golem or Chalice of the Void. I know, because I play a turn 2 combo deck and even when I win fast, I have to fight through hate to do it.
As for inconsistencies in the power cards, that isn't a factor at all. I've won games with powerless decks, much less powerless hands in decks that use power. An opening hand of [ESG, Hermit Druid, Bayou, Cabal Therapy, Force, Force, Narcomoeba] is perfectly fine against a hand of [Mox, Mox, Thalia, SoR, Bob, Plains, Marsh Flats]. The fact that I didn't draw my power and he did, means nothing if my deck is well constructed. Not only that, most decks are highly consistent because they run a high saturation of tutors and draw spells.
I do not appreciate your trolling in other forums, but I take it especially unkindly that you are attemtping to move into my home in the Eternal forums, and doing it with the most blasé ignorance you can muster. Please either leave, or stop being a troll.
Could just report him, I guess.
As well, I had no idea you played so much T1, SC. I've seen your post of that hermit druid / Sutured Ghoul / */* guy who's name I forgot. I like the deck, actually. Do you do your testing on Cockatrice?
I've been trying to make a mud deck recently; just have to finish getting my last workshop. Sadly, vintage tournament scene in Edmonton is terrible. Only a few friends and I actually own the card base.
Something seems odd about his post, like he's pasted from MS Word or something. Someone else's argument.
Oh, I'm glad you like it. it's a pretty fun deck. Getting harder to play around with though, now that Thalia Parfait is a thing, Mana Drain is coming back, and Grafdigger's Cage has been printed =/ I have been considering running a different win package from Sutured Ghoul so that I can win on upkeep without swinging.
I do some testing on Cockatrice, but mostly with my group of friends and proxy-filled sleeves.
Sorry to hear about the lack of support in your area; you should consider Proxy tournaments (99% of Vintage events are 10-15 proxies here, hence why money is not an issue). Help your friends who don't have the cards get used to the format with fully- or mostly-proxied decks, then run events where they can skip paying for the 10 most expensive cards. Try to build up interest in several local game shops and maybe get a weekly or monthly thing going.
No need to call the OP a troll, Vintage clearly does have some issues, it's not the most popular of formats. On the other hand there are good counterpoints as well.
Vintage is unpopular for two main reasons: a) It is not as visible as the other formats, and b) Players are discouraged from entering it because of percieved problems with the format, which Zokorad has presented in his usual trolling manner, and which are not real problems.
Coming in and asking "Is there a way to fix these problems?", or "Is Vintage really like this?" is valid. Coming in and saying "Vintage sucks and anybody who disagrees is wrong" is trolling.
Well a lot of vintage decks play with proxies either none up to 10 I have seen. I have some decks with no power 9 and still do well. If you don't like vintage go play legacy or commander or ect ect. So many different formats not all are for everyone
I am a new player and I feel that OP is not trolling. There is a strictly logical statement that says "if you wanted to top 8 for the last four years, you had three choices, two of them ridiculously expensive"
1. Play a Black Lotus and the Five Moxes, 28 of the 32 top 8 decks.
2. No Black Lotus, yes Five Moxes, 2 additional decks.
3. Golgari deck, 2 additional decks.
If that is not a very limited field of play I don't know what is.
If the vintage restricted list was reprinted, and vintage got some new cards the way Commander works, well, that would be nice....I know its anathema, but I am still wielding the newbie aura.
Also, in a no-proxy setting, looks to me that if you are playing a budget vintage deck you are effectively playing some form of legacy, right?
...and in no way do I mean to offend vintage players....just trying to understand the format. It is very appealing because you can play the power 10 (as proxies, of course!!!) and because it really does include all magic cards minus ante and "drop from above" cards.
There are very few non-proxy environments. Blue Bell and Gencon are the only ones I can think of offhand. However, in proxy environments, which are well worth playing (the prizes are usually the cards you are proxying), you can Top 8 with a $50 deck, as I technically did (I went 4-0 and dropped right before the cut to Top 8 in a Mox Ruby tournament). There are also poweful rogue builds that can cope with not having the expensive cards; the reason they are not played is not because they aren't viable, it's because the kind of people who want to play Vintage competitively already have the expensive cards anyway. Others are discouraged by the perceived problems and expenses.
Again, Zokorad is trolling. It is not trolling to bring up problems with or questions about the format; that is perfectly acceptable. It is not trolling because Zokorad doesn't believe what he is saying and is just fishing for a response (though this is probably true). It is trolling because of the tone and vitriol. Coming in and saying "Vintage sucks and you're wrong no matter what you say" is not communication, nor is it a constructive contribution.
Also, no, budget Vintage is not Legacy. Some budget decks may end up being Legacy legal, but you build for an entirely different meta. For instance, a budget red deck would definitely include Gorilla Shaman , a card that is not very good in Legacy. The Mountains Win Again was a popular budget build a few years ago that ran Jagged Poppet , a card that's pretty much unplayable in Legacy.
No problem! It's very refreshing to have someone ask real questions and seek (and listen to) the answers. I hope I didn't sound callous, but in these forums we are accustomed to responses like Zokorad's in the first few posts, even from ourselves; there is an air of defensiveness that makes it hard to accept answers or take questions seriously.
If you have any other questions about the Vintage meta, playing Vintage competitively, or the game in general, please feel free to ask! =) I hope you are more interested in pursuing the format now.
I love how everybody realized that zokorad was a troll, but replied anyways.
Better ... but you came dangerously close to spelling "you're" right.
No, it is good to reply to trolls such as this. Otherwise people new to the format (like me) have no reason to not assume he is correct. Of course, getting caught in a long 'discussion' with a troll is not usually a good use of time.
Sometimes you need to feed them , trolls gotta eat too!
OP says vintage is a bad format and then mentions Extended in his post. lolz. Modern is here to stay and extended is dead. Legacy is also on its way out the door (at least in terms of popularity).
Vintage RUG Delver, by Mike Solymossy
Mana Sources (19)
UR Landstill, by Chris Pikula
Mana Sources (25)
Cobra Gush, by Stephen Menendian
Mana Sources (22)
I have a really original idea. I post links to all of the really "good" decks that I make because that will be useful to the masses.
Everyone one of those decks can be ripped apart by the cards I posted.
oh really? lets take a look.
Vintage RUG Delver, by Mike Solymossy
4 Force of Will - counters both
so this deck has 13 ways to counter your 8 cards, and a total of 12 cards of five different kinds that can win the game. sorta seems like youre wrong. as usual. you need to maybe stop talking, because no one cares. you are really deeply embarrassing yourself.
Don't forget you'd be running against a whole nother deck full of the same removal/counter. Blue and black are full of control.
It doesn't even seem like that would be essential, blue is dominated by monored anti-blue. What would any of those decks be against that?
Burn crushes creatures, red can flat out hard counter blue and destroy blue permanents for dirt cheap.
In addition to that, there are even other options. I just don't play anymore so I'm not going to carry on further.
a whole nother? lol
tournament results speak for themselves. go win a tournament if your ideas are so correct. i dont know how else to explain it to you, because you obviously arent getting it. you wont even play a game against me.
what do you get out of trolling people? is your life really so empty? or are you honestly that retarded? either way, please win a darwin award soon. back to being blocked you go.
I don't play anymore. If you're such a good player, why aren't you out there winning?
And if you're better than me, why do you feel you need to prove it?
It's just a game anyways, what does it say about someone who puts a game over the happiness of people?
im on the side of the decks that have won tournaments; you are saying they are easily beaten. the onus is on you.
i dont feel the need to prove im better than you. you said you could easily defeat my deck. i said you were wrong. i offered to prove it, because that when two people disagree about something that is an issue of fact rather than opinion, the logical course for both parties is to discover the answer. in the case, that answer is solved with a few games of magic. im happy to be proven wrong. you, however, seem to be afraid of a little girl, or else you are not afraid but erroneously believe this issue to be a matter of opinion rather than fact. or neither, since youre a troll.
anyways is not a word. the word is anyway. and i dont put a game over the happiness of people. i value happiness. which is why i think things like trolling, giving new posters and players incorrect and/or misleading advice, and making contradictory statements are bad.
No person deserves to be treated as you've treated me.
One day, I hope you regret how you've treated me.
It'll happen when you get older and grow up.
You'll realize the greatest thing in life is "just to love, and be loved in return".
If you want to play my decks I sent you some of them. Go play against them with someone else.
What you've said is correct, but they still support Vintage in the form of tournaments; albeit less so because of format popularity. That they still support the ban and restricted list shows that they do keep in mind the health of the format.
It's not an either/or, just not as focused as more popular formats.
Wizards does support it if you just pay attention to the content they print. Just as Chaos stated, lots of the new content finds a special home in Vintage format. However, I've got to say it's maybe my least favorite format. All the decks are nearly identical (Lotus, Mox, etc.) and everyone does nothing but run endless counterspells. That's all pretty boring to me, I like diversity, build up, and game progression.
No, that logic doesn't make sense. Just because cards can be applicable to Vintage doesn't mean they are purposely printing them for Vintage. When was the last Vintage pro tour? Grand prix? PTQ?
Shops hold their own personal Vintage format tournaments all the time though Shadowchu.
They generally offer a power-nine or other glory card as the prize.
That's really interesting because it didn't answer any of the questions I asked.
I totally understand Wizard's decision as a business to throw their support behind formats that have large populations of players and easy access to new players, while leaving older formats like Vintage (and even now Legacy thanks to Modern) to be picked up by the secondary market.
heres the thing: wotc sets up lots of tournaments. it isnt like theyd pay to have a 1000 person turnout somewhere and then only ten people would show up and theyd be out a bunch of money. they could plan for it to be a smaller event. and people would come.
Yeah, but why? What does the company get out of it? Do they get more players interested in a format whose cards are chiefly acquired on the secondary and tertiary(trading) markets? They get a gathering of some of the brightest minds in Magic, but to what end? What does it promote? What does the headline read across the page on the website other than "Over a thousand players come together to play with over million dollars worth of cards in San Antonio!"
they get long term investment. the vast majority of vintage players i know dont spend money anymore. you can typically trade a card you dont think youll ever use for almost any new stuff you need. i havent given wotc dollars directly in over a year, even though i still enjoy the game. when longterm players leave, they arent replaced. the newer players who come in will play draft or standard, and online formats, and eventually some may even gravitate all the way back to legacy. but the lack of support for vintage isnt cool, and while they seem to be doing fine as a company, it would really be amazing if they supported the older scene, especially by reprinting cards. they could even do incredibly limited print runs that were ONLY given out as ptq/grand prix/pt prizes, maybe. imagine if every major standard event had a reprinted black lotus as the prize. it wouldnt devalue the cards, because there would only be a few dozen new cards a year, but it would make a ton of cash, and enormously increase the interest. the reprint policy does not apply to promotional cards, as far as i know. i, for one, think it would be amazing.
Or you know, they could just piggy back some events they are already doing with a vintage tournament. It's not like standard players and vintage players can't coexist in the same city.
It's been half a decade since I last bought cards, but I might consider spending/playing/going to that if they had a proxied tournament for vintage.
wotc never will and never should have proxied tournies. im glad they exist in the us, but there is no way they could have a proxied tourney that would really benefit them. it would only work as a "thank you" to some players, which some people might say is reason enough, but it would also come off as an FU to anyone who has actually spent the time and money to acquire power.
If they made a committed run at supporting vintage it could be beneficial to host some proxied ones. It gets people into the game. People buy the shell to build a deck + proxy and then slowly start buying power and becoming full fledged powered vintage decks, in theory. Just have smaller proxied ones and "real" ones that are bigger with better prizes. It's a dying format. Something needs to happen to boost it. Having it will open the door for new players and you can still reward people who have gone out of their way to.
youre asking the board to approve spending money on events that encourage plays to not buy their products AND to snub some percentage of colectors. it just wont happen, and i understand why. i personally wouldnt mind it, but theres always waterbury.
Vintage is a format I know basically nothing about. I wish some of the vintage pros would come out and speak about the format more. Seeing that most of the best vintage players don't play other formats you don't really hear from them or even know about them. I wish I could attach a face to this format so I could at least feel somewhat attached to this part of magic that I don't think I'll ever participate in.
stephen menendian actively campaigns (or did in the recent future) to get more vintage attention from wotc, including getting power reprinted. the problem is that is HAS to be power. anything less will just boost legacy and leave vintage in the dust even further.
I had to look him up because I'm just not aware of any vintage guys.
If power was reprinted, and power alone, I think I could find the time and money to get other cards that were expensive and actually play the format.
I look at Legacy and it is big now because Star City really pushed the format basically to make money. It's good that people are taking a greater interest in Legacy but it's also pushed a lot of the cards needed to enter the format up which is also relevant to Vintage. Barrier of entry is the main problem for Vintage, obviously. Sure, player skill level won't be up to snuff for Vintage but if the format could grow we could get more people who truly understand the rules.
I guess I have to make the obvious knee-jerk reaction: I'm not sure how I would feel if my power got reprinted in modern and black border. I have had multiple pieces over the years but when I finally decided to get the Jet and finish it, it felt like an accomplishment.
I'm not saying that reprints will take that away, but knowing that all I had to do was wait and get in on it is a little disheartening.
Now, if that brought more people into the fold and there were actually a vintage scene where I lived, which isn't a tiny city, then that might be worth the trouble. Either that or make Vintage type player rewards that were reprint power and make them tournament rewards. Hold X tournaments, with good frequency and be generous with the rewards. Were that the case I think it would hold old cards value.
It'd be like a NA Bazaar of Moxen; except, you know, cheapskate rewards... lol. It's sort of like reprinting Sol Ring, I'll forever prefer my alpha / betas.
The Sol Ring reprint was probably them prodding to see if they could actually reprint stuff without having the community hate them. It's not a pricey card in other editions but the beta one has retained most of if not all of its value.
At this point of vintage you're asking whether you want magic to be collectable or playable. It's not an easy question with a simple answer and I think a lot of people who want the cards reprinted don't see that. There are a lot of people who invested a lot of money to get very sought after expensive cards who don't want to feel cheated.
As a bad-case scenario, look at Yu-Gi-Oh. They reprinted most cards, from what I've heard, of value and their player base in my area has almost died completely: Replaced by Card Fight Vanguard!. Lesson to be learned, I guess.
I think it comes down to method. Don't make it too accessible and make it something to earn. Not quite as hard as the over-oversized cards from like GenCon or some such. Besides, if the art changes, then the newer cards may not have as much value as the older ones.
I think from a market perspective it's really hard to gauge whether or not reprinting of a valuable card will completely ruin it's value. I guess they are putting power into the next MODO cube which could spark interest for people playing with power more and if they get enough support after that maybe they could try vintage on MODO and see how it goes. Obviously not the same as in real life where power exists but they could see if players want to play vintage if given the choice.
i still think proxied events will never be sanctioned, and while i know all of the reasons people might say they are a good idea, and even agree with somee of those, that is something i feel wotc will never budge on, which is fine.
Having a proxy tournament has the same functionality as reprinting power. So, if they consider proxy tournaments they should just print official proxies for people to use, no?
also lol that at this thread title and the fact that this thread has like 80% of the activity in this forum this week
it's all about exposure. no one really knows anything about vintage because it's all assumed that you have to have power or you lose. my point about proxy tournaments piggybacking other events would be that it would help open the door for more players. it would give the format a chance to show it'smore accessible to the typical player. the only other option is you do a public online show to help draw attention! just record it at home with a friend or two, post online and include a link in your sig and spam everywhere so everyone can watch.
i don't think proxy tournaments has the completely the same effect as reprinting. it might devalue the cards in a slight way, but i think a loot of the value is still there from collectors.
I don't think FTV really counts as promotional. It's not being put in a Standard/Modern set, but it's mass produced and available to anyone who can spend money on it.
I think they just recently released a judge foil Karakas , that's the kind of promo where they can get around the list.
Well either way, my point is that something like a judge foil, with a smaller print run and not for public sale, would be easier to accept than a big release like FTV.
JBTM: I think you're forgetting that Wizards can't re-print the reserved list cards in any form now. Since the Karn FTV uproar, they closed the loophole that allowed them to print the cards in any form, promotional, special release or in a set. The closest we'll ever get to Wizards "reprinting" the reserve list cards is Wizards buying up a bunch of the cards on the market and re-releasing them as prizes, judge rewards or as the "lost treasures" in Zendikar packs. They simply have no other avenue to getting them out of the stores and back into the hands of the players.
Of course, the game is only 20 years old. Once the current collectors (a.k.a. the jerks that are causing the reserve list to be a problem) start dying off, their stockpiles will flood the market. It happened with Wasteland s several months ago. A major collector of the card died, and the price dropped from $50-60 to $30-35 overnight from their heirs selling off the collection and releasing it to the players again. Of course, the price drop was only temporary, as the demand for the card quickly ate up the new supply.
Moral of the story: never, ever trade to a collector. Leave the cards in circulation for the people who want to play them. The real problem isn't that the reserve list exists (and it will always exist, so stop whinning about it), it's that there are people hoarding the cards.
People also forget that without the reserve list, the game would have died a long time ago, depriving all of us of the game we enjoy now. The reserve list was an emergency way of saving the game when it was being abandoned because people didn't have any faith that their cards would retain any value because of reprints. If your new cards were going to be worthless soon, why would you ever buy them in first place? What's the point of cracking packs if your chase rare is going to be worthless once Wizards reprints the hell out of it? The reserve list was Wizards way of restoring that confidence, allowing players to rejoin the game without worrying about the future of their valuable collections.
the reserve list was probably a good thing when it was implemented. it was designed to correct the giant mistake that was chronicles. but it isnt needed now.it is possible to change a policy without changing your mind; it was a good thing in the past, it is not a good thing now.
the thing that really gets me is this:
i have never, ever heard anyone convincingly argue why they dont think cards should be reprinted.
ive heard players say that they think wotc will never do it because collectors want to preserve the value of their cards; definitely true.
ive heard players say that they think the prices would quickly skyrocket to insane levels; probably true.
ive heard players say that they think wizards will ever change their policy; possibly true.
ive heard collectors and designers all say the same things.
but ive never heard someone weighing all of the arguments rationally and coming up with the answer "cards from the reserve list shouldnt be reprinted." they give reasons why other people might not want them reprinted. they give reasons why wizards wont change their mind. but ive never seen anyone weigh all the pros and cons and go "yeah, you know what; i dont think they should reprint black lotus in any tournament legal form."
i understand that collectors dont necessarily travel in the same internet circles as players, so im willing to make some allowances that just because i havent heard it doesnt mean it hasnt been said. the closest ive heard to "yeah wotc shouldnt reprint them" comes from maro only, and only with (and im paraphrasing here) "wizards said that we wouldnt reprint certain cards and so as a company we are ethically obligated to abide by that."
honestly, power will never be on the market for 50 bucks. but if they offered it as prizes at major tournaments (say, t8 at a pro tour event or top finisher at a ptq or grand prix event,) then there would be two effects:
1) there would be increased interest in vintage, even without wizards hosting a single vintage event.
2) there would be an increase in the actually player-held pool of power, versus collectors, card shops, and retired players.
3) the value of collections would not be affected
these premium reprints would very likely not affect the secondary market at all; i cant say how much they would be worth, but the 1996 world champion and summer magic hurricane havent done anything to unseat black lotus as the "most expensive" magic card, so likely neither would these. also, using my suggestion above, we are talking about something like a 1% increase in the number of black lotuses every year. not a big impact on the value or collectability of other cards, but a huge boost to interest in the format.
heck, if they really wanted to, they could take part of tonys suggestion and just buy cards on the secondary market and release them that way. it would boost interest without having them do something insane like buy back all black lotuses on the market, or violate the reserve list.
at the end of the day, between limited, online, and standard, wotc makes so much money off those events, there's no real need to risk money/invest in the eternal formats. that's why vintage is dying and legacy isn't nearly as big as it should be. which is a shame because i think it could be really profitable for them and really good for new players to play the "bigger" formats.
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