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11 months ago ::
Aug 18, 2012 - 3:15PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Mar 15, 2009
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Here's a convoluted scenario we just brewed up. Suppose I control Skullbriar, the Walking Grave  , Karador, Ghost Chieftain  , Lavacore Elemental  , and Viscera Seer  . I attack with the team, Mirrorweave  the Lavacore Elemental , and watch as all of my creatures get 4 time counters. I pass the turn, and during my next turn sacrifice Skullbriar, the Walking Grave to Viscera Seer . I cast Skullbriar from my graveyard (it has 4 time counters on it), and my opponent casts Delay  targeting Skullbriar, the Walking Grave . Does Delay add 3 time counters to the 4 already present on the spell, remove 1, or not change the amount of time counters on the spell? Is there anything in the rules actually covering this situation? Time counters are unusual in that they can exist on cards in 2 different zones.
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11 months ago ::
Aug 18, 2012 - 3:22PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2005
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Here's a convoluted scenario we just brewed up. Suppose I control Skullbriar, the Walking Grave , Karador, Ghost Chieftain , Lavacore Elemental , and Viscera Seer . I attack with the team, Mirrorweave the Lavacore Elemental , and watch as all of my creatures get 4 time counters. I pass the turn, and during my next turn sacrifice Skullbriar, the Walking Grave to Viscera Seer . I cast Skullbriar from my graveyard (it has 4 time counters on it), and my opponent casts Delay targeting Skullbriar, the Walking Grave . Does Delay add 3 time counters to the 4 already present on the spell, remove 1, or not change the amount of time counters on the spell?
Is there anything in the rules actually covering this situation? Time counters are unusual in that they can exist on cards in 2 different zones.
It would get three counters plus however many it had before.
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11 months ago ::
Aug 18, 2012 - 3:29PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Mar 15, 2009
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Here's a convoluted scenario we just brewed up. Suppose I control Skullbriar, the Walking Grave , Karador, Ghost Chieftain , Lavacore Elemental , and Viscera Seer . I attack with the team, Mirrorweave the Lavacore Elemental , and watch as all of my creatures get 4 time counters. I pass the turn, and during my next turn sacrifice Skullbriar, the Walking Grave to Viscera Seer . I cast Skullbriar from my graveyard (it has 4 time counters on it), and my opponent casts Delay targeting Skullbriar, the Walking Grave . Does Delay add 3 time counters to the 4 already present on the spell, remove 1, or not change the amount of time counters on the spell?
Is there anything in the rules actually covering this situation? Time counters are unusual in that they can exist on cards in 2 different zones.
It would get three counters plus however many it had before.
Do you know why this is? I can't find anything in the rules justifying it. Delay says "with 3 time counters on it", which is unclear as to whether it puts 3 additional counters on the spell, or causes the spell to have 3 time counters on it.
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11 months ago ::
Aug 18, 2012 - 3:32PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2005
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Here's a convoluted scenario we just brewed up. Suppose I control Skullbriar, the Walking Grave , Karador, Ghost Chieftain , Lavacore Elemental , and Viscera Seer . I attack with the team, Mirrorweave the Lavacore Elemental , and watch as all of my creatures get 4 time counters. I pass the turn, and during my next turn sacrifice Skullbriar, the Walking Grave to Viscera Seer . I cast Skullbriar from my graveyard (it has 4 time counters on it), and my opponent casts Delay targeting Skullbriar, the Walking Grave . Does Delay add 3 time counters to the 4 already present on the spell, remove 1, or not change the amount of time counters on the spell?
Is there anything in the rules actually covering this situation? Time counters are unusual in that they can exist on cards in 2 different zones.
It would get three counters plus however many it had before.
Do you know why this is? I can't find anything in the rules justifying it. Delay says "with 3 time counters on it", which is unclear as to whether it puts 3 additional counters on the spell, or causes the spell to have 3 time counters on it.
I don't have the specific rule handy, but compare it to Undying. Undying says to return the creature with one +1/+1 counter, but it you give Undying to a Clockwork Hydra  it gets the one counter from Undying in addition to the four it normally gets.
I'm sure someone will be along before too long that can cite the specific rule that covers these situations.
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11 months ago ::
Aug 19, 2012 - 9:26AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
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the effect of Delay says to exile it with three time counters
Skullbriar's own effect says to bring any counters on it with it
Event: {move Skullbriar to exile, put 3 time counters on Skullbriar in exile}
Skullbriar's ability creates a replacement effect modifies the event.
Modified event: {move Skullbriar to exile, move Skullbriar to exile, bring any counters present on Skullbriar in current zone to Skullbriar in exile, put 3 time counters on Skullbriar in exile}
MtG Rules Advisor &
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11 months ago ::
Aug 19, 2012 - 1:48PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Sep 19, 2008
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This thread reminded me that rule 112.6 doesn't say how Skullbriar's ability can function in zones other than the battlefield.
Also the ability doesn't create a replacement effect.
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11 months ago ::
Aug 20, 2012 - 9:30AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Oct 15, 2009
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Skullbriar 's second ability is a direct contradiction of Rule 121.2; so the Golden Rule would seem to apply --- particularly since the Golden Rule makes no reference to a card's (potentially non-functioning or non-existent) abilites but only to that card's text. 121.2. Counters on an object are not retained if that object moves from one zone to another.
101.1. Whenever a card's text directly contradicts these rules, the card takes precedence.
 Rules Advisor as of 03/01/2013 Zammm = Batman "Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman
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11 months ago ::
Aug 20, 2012 - 10:13PM
#8
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But rule 101.1 also says: 101.1. Whenever a card's text directly contradicts these rules, the card takes precedence. The card overrides only the rule that applies to that specific situation. The only exception is that a player can concede the game at any time (see rule 104.3a).
So unless skullbriar directly contradicts rule 112.6 it's abilities only function from the battlefield. To work it's supposed to it should probably be reworded as "
Counters remain on Skullbriar as it moves from any zone to any zone other than a player's hand or library." Now you could argue that the fact that rule 101.1 only mentions text means that abilities don't have to be in the right zone to override the rules; However such an interpretation would allow Telepathy  to override rule 402.3 from your library so I'd argue it can't be the way rule 101.1 is intended to work.
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11 months ago ::
Aug 20, 2012 - 10:20PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2012
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In many cases, a simpler template is chosen over hypercorrect wording. I believe this is the case for Skullbriar  . I'm sure that the community can provide some other examples of cards that don't quite work, but it's clear enough how to use them and most players wouldn't even know that it's broken.
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11 months ago ::
Aug 21, 2012 - 12:55AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Oct 15, 2009
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However such an interpretation would allow Telepathy to override rule 402.3 from your library so I'd argue it can't be the way rule 101.1 is intended to work.
I would completely agree. But 402.3 only prohibits players from looking at the cards in other player's hands, which in Magic is different from those cards being revealed; so there isn't necessarily a direct contradiction there.
More to the point, Telepathy operates by setting a condition on the game state of known duration and applicability, which players fulfill by perfroming a defined keyword action. All of the above can be derived from the rules without any reference to 101.1. Since it doesn't need the Golden Rule to work, I would argue that the Golden Rule doesn't apply to it; hence, there are no worries about the card operating from my library.
Interestingly, it's crossed my mind that if it read "Any player may look at your opponents' hands," we might be in some very hot water. Because that wording does make a statement which directly contradicts 402.3. So the situation would, at best, be very ambiguous  .
The case of Skullbriar is different: it makes a statement about itself which appears to have no rules support and which directly contradicts 121.2. There are basically two solutions: we can invent a rule which states, in essense, "Skullbriar works" (an option which has been taken in similar situations in the past) or we can argue that it's covered by the Golden Rule.
I am starting to wonder, though, why 112.6b isn't enough. Given that there are a fixed number of zones, it seems very plausible to me that an ability which states which zones it does not function in can be construed as having defined what zones it does function in. Admittedly, the rule says "states" -- which Skullbriar technically doesn't -- but that could be fixed by swapping "states" for "defines".
Rules Advisor as of 03/01/2013 Zammm = Batman "Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman
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