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11 months ago ::
Aug 17, 2012 - 5:26PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jan 31, 2007
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If I were to have Melira, Sylvok Outcast  on the battlefield along with Cauldron of Souls  and Melira would get destroyed after I give her persist from the cauldron, would she return to the battlefield with or without a -1/-1 counter? Please quote the relevant rules used to support your answer.
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11 months ago ::
Aug 17, 2012 - 5:31PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2001
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She can't have a -1/-1 counter placed on her, so she doesn't. That's not because of any particular rule, it's a simple matter of reading the card. There is no time when she's on the battlefield and this doesn't apply.
Jeff Heikkinen
DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
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11 months ago ::
Aug 17, 2012 - 5:36PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jan 24, 2011
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Actually, there is a rule supporting this: 121.6. If a spell or ability refers to a counter being "placed" on a permanent, it means putting a counter on that permanent while it's on the battlefield, or that permanent entering the battlefield with a counter on it as the result of a replacement effect.
Rules Advisor Please autocard: [c ]Disenchant[/c ] = Disenchant  .
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11 months ago ::
Aug 17, 2012 - 5:53PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2001
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Yeah, it occurred to me afterward that the question might be "does Melira's CE take effect in time to affect the replacement effect that would put a counter on it from Persist?". So the question is more subtle than I gave it credit for at first, but the answer remains the same.
Jeff Heikkinen
DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
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11 months ago ::
Aug 17, 2012 - 6:34PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jan 31, 2007
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And finally, not to be rude, but considering the person I'm arguing with is apparently a level 3 judge, may I ask what your credentials are?
EDIT: Also, while I used rule 121.6 to defend my stance, he still argues that it doesn't apply, as she would have the counter before entering the battlefield, and her ability wouldn't be active in time. I argue that her ability would become active at the same time the game would try to place a counter on her. Is there any additional CR evidence to support either claim?
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11 months ago ::
Aug 17, 2012 - 6:36PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jan 19, 2003
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And finally, not to be rude, but considering the person I'm arguing with is apparently a level 3 judge, may I ask what your credentials are?
It's this rule that is the relevant rule.
112.6h An object's ability that states counters can't be placed on that object functions as that object is entering the battlefield in addition to functioning while that object is on the battlefield.
EDIT: The rule was added fairly recently specifically for cases like this. See the May 2011 Update Bulletin
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11 months ago ::
Aug 17, 2012 - 6:36PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2005
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And finally, not to be rude, but considering the person I'm arguing with is apparently a level 3 judge, may I ask what your credentials are?
The relevent rule has been posted. What does it matter who posted it?
What is the judge saying the answer is, and what rules are they providing to support their position?
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11 months ago ::
Aug 17, 2012 - 6:38PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jan 19, 2003
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The relevent rule has been posted.
It has now, but it hadn't when tranceban asked.
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11 months ago ::
Aug 17, 2012 - 6:43PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jan 31, 2007
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The judge goes by Woapalanne on the MTGS forums, and I can't find a cited rule. He's justifying his stance by saying that she doesn't reference herself in her ability, though I personally feel that's irrelevant. He also seems to be under the impression that persist doesn't create a replacement effect, and somehow that affects the outcome.
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11 months ago ::
Aug 17, 2012 - 6:43PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2005
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The relevent rule has been posted.
It has now, but it hadn't when he asked.
Why doesn't 121.6 apply? Doesn't Persist generate a replacement effect?
614.1c Effects that read “[This permanent] enters the battlefield with . . . ,” “As [this permanent] enters the battlefield . . . ,” or “[This permanent] enters the battlefield as . . . ” are replacement effects. 702.77a Persist is a triggered ability. “Persist” means “When this permanent is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner’s control with a -1/-1 counter on it.”
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