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10 months ago ::
Aug 17, 2012 - 12:04PM
#11
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Date Joined:
Oct 18, 2009
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Wait, reading again I think the continuous effect that makes the Licid a non-creature stops applying once it becomes phased out. Which would mean it is a phased-out creature. If that's true, Time and Tide can return it. Once it returns, the effect starts aplying again. It will be an Aura. Apparently no rule tells us what happens! It was 'indirectly phased' so 702.24f assumes it won't return while 702.24h talks about a directly phased out object. I don't even know what would happen in the untap step. Is that a bug on the Matrix?
[<o>]
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10 months ago ::
Aug 17, 2012 - 12:05PM
#12
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Date Joined:
Dec 29, 2010
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No, I mean after it reaches the new zone. It's what the original card looks like.
Phasing has nothing to do with zone changes. Nothing is changing zones here.
I know. My point is, why are the rules treating the phased-out status of tokens the same way they do for going to a new zone, but not for anything else? Like a licid that changes card types?
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10 months ago ::
Aug 17, 2012 - 12:06PM
#13
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Date Joined:
Dec 29, 2010
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Wait, reading again I think the continuous effect that makes the Licid a non-creature stops applying once it becomes phased out. Which would mean it is a phased-out creature.
If that's true, Time and Tide can return it.
Once it returns, the effect starts aplying again. It will be an Aura. Apparently no rule tells us what happens! It was 'indirectly phased' so 702.24f assumes it won't return while 702.24h talks about a directly phased out object. I don't even know what would happen in the untap step.
Is that a bug on the Matrix?
This is what I originally thought would happen. Except for the part where it's returns as an aura and breaks the universe in half.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 17, 2012 - 12:12PM
#14
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Date Joined:
Oct 18, 2009
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I know. My point is, why are the rules
'Why'? Here's the RQ&A, not RT&T. The rules do. That's all (I'm not sure what they do, but this is the only point). The whys are discussed a bit south of here 
[<o>]
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10 months ago ::
Aug 18, 2012 - 12:43AM
#15
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Date Joined:
Sep 19, 2008
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While the licid is phased-out it's just a creature because the effect that turns it into an aura doesn't affect it. However, time and tide can't bring it back because the licid phased out indirectly and thus it can only phase in indirectly. Except it can't, because the object it was enchanting no longer exists.
So the licid is phased-out forever. One day the apocalypse will come and the licid will still be there, invisible and intangible.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 18, 2012 - 2:03AM
#16
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Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2010
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While the licid is phased-out it's just a creature because the effect that turns it into an aura doesn't affect it.
I don't believe this is correct, the effect that changed the licid's type was already applied before the phasing event occured. It states in the phasing rules that "for as long as" effect do indeed expire when a permanent phases out, but that doesn't apply to the licid's type changing effect.
DCI Level 2 Judge
Rockford, Illinois
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10 months ago ::
Aug 18, 2012 - 2:14AM
#17
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Date Joined:
Sep 19, 2008
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The continuous effect is still there and it has not expired yet, that's correct. But it doesn't affect the licid in any way, so while it's phased-out, the licid is not an aura.
702.24b If a permanent phases out, its status changes to “phased out.” Except for rules and effects
that specifically mention phased-out permanents, a phased-out permanent is treated as though it
does not exist. It can’t affect or be affected by anything else in the game.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 18, 2012 - 10:00AM
#18
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However, time and tide  can't bring it back because the licid phased out indirectly and thus it can only phase in indirectly.
I do not see any support for that in the CR. Rule 702.24f says that "[a]n Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that phased out indirectly won't phase in by itself, but instead phases in along with the permanent it's attached to." It does not say that that is the only way the card can phase in or to ignore any effect that says specifically to phase in the card.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 18, 2012 - 11:04AM
#19
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Date Joined:
Dec 29, 2010
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I don't see that either. Enchantment-Aura Licid phases out indirectly: 702.24f. When a permanent phases out, any Auras, Equipment, or Fortifications attached to that permanent phase out at the same time. This alternate way of phasing out is known as phasing out "indirectly." An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that phased out indirectly won't phase in by itself, but instead phases in along with the permanent it's attached to.
Then, it ceases to be an Aura when phased out:
702.24e. Continuous effects that affect a phased-out permanent may expire while that permanent is phased out. If so, they will no longer affect that permanent once it's phased in. In particular, effects with "for as long as" durations that track that permanent (see rule 611.2b) end when that permanent phases out because they can no longer see it.
Token is gone:
702.24k. Phased-out tokens cease to exist as a state-based action. See rule 704.5d.
Indirect-Phasing rules only mention Auras, Equipments, and Fortifications. They omit other card types completely:
702.24h. An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that phased out directly will phase in attached to the object or player it was attached to when it phased out, if that object is still in the same zone or that player is still in the game. If not, that Aura, Equipment, or Fortification phases in unattached. State-based actions apply as appropriate. (See rules 704.5n and 704.5p.)
So the Licid is phased out permanently. Time and Tide  references phased-out permanents. The rules mark no difference between the existence of phased-out permanents that got there normally or indirectly.
702.24b. If a permanent phases out, its status changes to "phased out." Except for rules and effects that specifically mention phased-out permanents, a phased-out permanent is treated as though it does not exist. It can't affect or be affected by anything else in the game.
Surely Time and Tide will at the very least attempt to bring back the now-creature licid.
Also, because of the previous rule: "Continuous effects that affect a phased-out permanent may expire while that permanent is phased out. If so, they will no longer affect that permanent once it's phased in." -- I disagree that it will return as an aura. The continuous Licid effect should cease indefinitely, thus returning it as a creature, that is, assuming it returns. Though, it does seem odd that the rule says "continuous effects... "may expire", without explicitly telling us which effects should and shouldn't expire.
But there's nothing that mentions something phasing out indirectly and then phasing in "directly".
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10 months ago ::
Aug 18, 2012 - 11:33AM
#20
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Also, because of the previous rule: "Continuous effects that affect a phased-out permanent may expire while that permanent is phased out. If so, they will no longer affect that permanent once it's phased in." -- I disagree that it will return as an aura. The continuous Licid effect should cease indefinitely, thus returning it as a creature, that is, assuming it returns.
That is incorrect. Corrupting Licid  's effect has no duration. It will not end unless you pay the mana to make it end.
That rule just says that an effect could expire while the card is phased out and what to do if it does. Then it gives an example of an effect that automatically expires when the card phases out.
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