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Consider what happens with untapping Time Vault using its third ability (untap and skip a turn) with trigger Mesmeric Orb on the battlefield.

Here is the rule for putting triggered abilities on the stack in the upkeep step.
503.1. First, any abilities that trigger at the beginning of the upkeep step and any abilities that triggered during the turn’s untap step go on the stack. (See rule 603, “Handling Triggered Abilities.” )

Here is rule 603
603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that’s not a card the next time a player would receive priority.

Time Vault actually untaps during the untap step, so Mesmeric Orb triggers during the untap step and is covered by rule 503.1.

614.10b. Some effects cause a player to skip a step, phase, or turn, then take another action. That action is considered to be the first thing that happens during the next step, phase, or turn to actually occur.

I agree 100% with PirateAmmo, but on a related note, I wonder if it would even be necessary for 503.1 to be "all-inclusive"? I think that 603.3 is a catch-all saying that anytime anything triggers, it gets added to the stack at next priority. I don't think another rule needs to list the specific kinds of triggers that get added to the stack like 503.1 does.

Basically I'm asking if 503.1 actually does anything as a rule? If 503.1 just stopped existing, wouldn't everything work the same? Anything that triggered during Untap or beginning of Upkeep would get added to the stack at the start of the Upkeep step by virtue of 603.3 anyway, because that's the next time a player would receive priority. And, if something were at some point able to trigger "before the untap step" as the OP believed Time Vault did, 603.3 would cover that too.


And as a completely tangential note, looking at the Gatherer rulings on Time Vault... can we propose that no Gatherer ruling should EVER start with the words "This wording..."?

If you're asking "Is 503.1 in the category of rules we call "reminder rules", which don't actually modify the rules of the game by their presence in the rulebook?", the answer is probably yes. If you're asking "Should it therefore be removed?", the answer is definitely no. It serves to helpfully indicate most of what happens during upkeep.

If you were explaining upkeep to someone who didn't know the game, how would you describe upkeep? Having taught a few players, I'd say it basically goes "Nothing happens here unless any card says it does. But you can cast spells or activate abilities at this point if you want to." 503.1 (and ff) are just a more rules-compliant way of saying that.

503.1 might be more on the "informal" end of rules, but I think it's worth keeping around.

Aug 10, 2012 -- 6:56AM, alextfish wrote:

If you're asking "Is 503.1 in the category of rules we call "reminder rules", which don't actually modify the rules of the game by their presence in the rulebook?", the answer is probably yes. If you're asking "Should it therefore be removed?", the answer is definitely no. It serves to helpfully indicate most of what happens during upkeep.

If you were explaining upkeep to someone who didn't know the game, how would you describe upkeep? Having taught a few players, I'd say it basically goes "Nothing happens here unless any card says it does. But you can cast spells or activate abilities at this point if you want to." 503.1 (and ff) are just a more rules-compliant way of saying that.

503.1 might be more on the "informal" end of rules, but I think it's worth keeping around.

I wasn't suggesting removing it. I thought that the untap and trigger happened outside of any step, and that the rule should be expanded to include that case.
 

Aug 10, 2012 -- 12:51AM, PirateAmmo wrote:

Time Vault actually untaps during the untap step, so Mesmeric Orb triggers during the untap step and is covered by rule 503.1.

614.10b. Some effects cause a player to skip a step, phase, or turn, then take another action. That action is considered to be the first thing that happens during the next step, phase, or turn to actually occur.

Thanks for finding that.