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10 months ago ::
Aug 08, 2012 - 2:04PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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opponent controls Leyline of the Void  this shuts down all death triggers (because the object doesn't move to the graveyard), but sacrifice still works, despite it saying "To sacrifice a permanent, its controller moves it from the battlefield directly to its owner’s graveyard." you can activate sacrifice abilities or costs, but why does this trigger It That Betrays  or other stuff that look for sacrifice? even when it didn't end up in the graveyard?
proud member of the 2011 community team
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10 months ago ::
Aug 08, 2012 - 2:22PM
#2
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- Celestial Teapots are broken!
Date Joined:
Feb 24, 2007
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Sacrifice is a sort of wrapper. Normally, it contains "move a permanent to the graveyard", but you can replace that with "move a permanent somewhere else", without stopping it from being a sacrifice. Similarly, discard usually contains "move a card from the hand to the graveyard", but Library of Leng  or Obstinate Baloth  can change the destination without stopping it from being a discard.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 08, 2012 - 2:24PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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so even if you put Obstinate Baloth onto the battlefield Megrim  would still trigger? is all of this covered by a rule somewhere? I tried and look but I couldn't find any that really fits I mean if drawing a card is replaced you never drew a card, why is discard or sacrifice different?
proud member of the 2011 community team
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10 months ago ::
Aug 08, 2012 - 2:29PM
#4
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- Celestial Teapots are broken!
Date Joined:
Feb 24, 2007
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so even if you put Obstinate Baloth onto the battlefield Megrim would still trigger?
Yes.
is all of this covered by a rule somewhere? I tried and look but I couldn't find any that really fits
I mean if drawing a card is replaced you never drew a card, why is discard or sacrifice different?
I can't quote rules right now. The key distinction, though, is that if you replace "draw" with "do something else", that's no longer a draw, but if you replace "put the card in one zone" with "put the card in a different zone", that's still a discard, destruction, sacrifice, or whatever. That is, effects that replace the wrapper will cause the event to no longer be that wrapper, while effects that replace the content leave the wrapper untouched.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 08, 2012 - 2:30PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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Indeed. Nothing replaces "discard a card", it's what is meant to be discarded that changed.
"discard a card (by moving it from its owner’s hand to that player’s graveyard)."
becomes
"discard a card (by moving it from its owner’s hand to the battefield)."
For example, 701.7c implies the cards can be discarded without going to the graveyard. "If a card is discarded, but an effect causes it to be put into a hidden zone instead of into its owner’s graveyard without being revealed, ..."
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10 months ago ::
Aug 08, 2012 - 3:30PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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I can't quote rules right now. The key distinction, though, is that if you replace "draw" with "do something else", that's no longer a draw, but if you replace "put the card in one zone" with "put the card in a different zone", that's still a discard, destruction, sacrifice, or whatever. That is, effects that replace the wrapper will cause the event to no longer be that wrapper, while effects that replace the content leave the wrapper untouched.
I just noticed that Obstinate Baloth doesn't say "instead", I guess that is the difference
it's still discarding, it just moves to a different location
I still find it inconsistent with death triggers and it should be streamlined so that both behave similar
proud member of the 2011 community team
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10 months ago ::
Aug 08, 2012 - 4:07PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2007
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is all of this covered by a rule somewhere? I tried and look but I couldn't find any that really fits
I mean if drawing a card is replaced you never drew a card, why is discard or sacrifice different?
Actually, I expect drawing isn't different. If you have a card that replaces drawing with something else then it obviously doesn't count as drawing, but imagine a card card that said something like: "If a card would be put into a player's hand from anywhere, exile it instead."
I think that you'd still be able to trigger Lorescale Coatl  when you "draw" under that effect, even though the cards don't go to your hand.
blah blah metal lyrics
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10 months ago ::
Aug 09, 2012 - 2:39AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2004
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I just noticed that Obstinate Baloth doesn't say "instead", I guess that is the difference
it's still discarding, it just moves to a different location
Obstinate Baloth does say "instead". But the "instead" is modifying part of what the "discard" implies, not replacing the entirety of the discard event.
The way to think of it is a succession of wrappers, like a Pass-The-Parcel present.
- Top layer: Someone casts Mind Rot
 . If this layer is prevented (say by Cancel  ), none of the lower layers happen.
- Next layer: I "discard" a card from my hand. If there were some effect replacing "discard" events, this would replace this layer and everything below it, but not the layer above it. No cards are printed that do that, but it could be affected by hypothetical cards saying things like "If a player would discard a card, instead that player sacrifices a permanent".
- Next layer: The contents of the "discard" wrapper are "move a card from my hand to my graveyard". Assorted things can modify this, such as Leyline of the Void or Obstinate Baloth . Anything that modifies this doesn't replace anything above it.
Where you might be being confused is in the difference between "When ~ dies" and "When ~ is sacrificed". "Sacrifice" is a wrapper term, which usually means "move something from the battlefield to the graveyard", but that can be modified by unearth, Leyline, etc. Something can still be named a "sacrifice" even if what happens in the layer underneath that wrapping name is modified. Similarly, "destroy" is a wrapper term, normally meaning "move something from the battlefield to the graveyard". A handful of cards care about whether something was destroyed, such as Cobra Trap  , Seeds of Innocence  etc. Regeneration and totem armor affect the whole "destroy" event, so they will prevent something being counted for Cobra Trap etc. But Leyline of the Void , unearth etc affect what happens in the layer underneath the wrapping "destroy" event, so Cobra Trap will still see that the outer "destroy" wrapper happened even though what happened inside it is different from usual. "Dies" is different. "Dies" is just shorthand for writing "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield". That watches for things at the lowest layer. Leyline etc also change what happens at the lowest layer, so they can effectively prevent "dies" triggers because nothing "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield".
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