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11 months ago ::
Jul 23, 2012 - 2:43PM
#21
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2010
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That's like microsoft not patching windows security holes until people get infected pc's  If you can fix something, don't wait for it to become a problem. In this case, it simplifies rules. That's always welcome, imo. Oh well, it's for wizards to decide, I guess. Not holding my breath :/
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11 months ago ::
Jul 23, 2012 - 4:45PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Oct 15, 2009
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The rules of grammar apply to Magic. A "you" or "your" in a non-mana ability refers by default to the controller of the ability's source when the ability is read as a piece of English text, regardless of whether or not the ability is doing anything or even still exists  : if a mana ability uses the same pronoun, we use the same grammatical rule to determine that pronoun's antecedent. When a mana ability activates or triggers, that rule of grammar is sufficient to determine where the mana ends up. A more specific rule is only necessary if (when) the rules of grammar are insufficient to determine the result (which is true of everything in the game, actually).
Rules Advisor as of 03/01/2013 Zammm = Batman "Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman
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11 months ago ::
Jul 23, 2012 - 9:16PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2001
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Those latter three don't target.
Targeting has nothing to do with being able to respond.
I don't see how one can even get to that conclusion.
They are completely unrelated concepts.
Being able to respond is the entire reason targeting exists. There may be no purely mechanical connection between the concepts, but that is not the only, or the most important, kind of connection.
Jeff Heikkinen
DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
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11 months ago ::
Jul 24, 2012 - 4:00AM
#24
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2009
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I dont see a good reason why Koth's (-2) couldnt resolve as soon as it was placed on the stack. Nothing else would need to be changed about it (so it could still only be used once a turn, and only while you have priority during one of your main phases and the stack is empty).
~ Tim
 Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D Sig
Show
That makes no sense to me.
If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed?
~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise  in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch  . YAY COLOR IDENTITY 
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 24, 2012 - 4:45AM
#25
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- Celestial Teapots are broken!
Date Joined:
Feb 24, 2007
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They could make it work that way, by just making it clear that loyalty mana abilities follow the timing rules of loyalty abilities. However, there's no good reason why it should work that way. Mana abilities as a concept exist because they allow you to produce mana at a time you don't have priority. While you're casting a spell or activating an ability, or when a spell/ability is resolving and asking for mana payment, you wouldn't normally be able activate an ability, and even if you could, it wouldn't normally resolve in time for you to get the mana you need. Mana abilities exist to solve this problem: they can be activated at those times even when other abilities couldn't, and they resolve immediately. Loyalty abilities can't (and shouldn't be able to) be activated at those mana ability opportunities, so Koth's ability doesn't have to be a mana ability. It's true that this creates an inconsistency, with some abilities that produce mana being mana abilities and others not being mana abilities. However, it also creates consistency: abilities which need to be mana abilities are mana abilities, while those don't need to be mana abilities aren't mana abilities; and all loyalty abilities use the stack and can be responded to, regardless of their effects on resolution. And if all mana-producing abilities resolved immediately, that would still leave an inconsistency between mana-producing abilities and mana-producing spells (e.g. Dark Ritual  ). Personally, I'd prefer if the current system were strengthened further, such that only those abilities that can actually use the mana ability timing opportunities are mana abilities. I think it's weird that the abilities of Charmed Pendant  , Grinning Ignus  , Lion's Eye Diamond  , and Rhystic Cave  have mana abilities.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 25, 2012 - 7:10PM
#26
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2010
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Perhaps a new supertype would help for the spells we want to work the same way as mana abilities.
Since 'Mana' is basically a supertype for abilities, it could also work for spells.
Dark Ritual
B
Mana Instant
Add BBB to your mana pool.
The comp rules would get a section for that new supertype, which explains the timing of Mana spells and abilities.
Both mana abilities and mana spells would use the stack, but would resolve immediately after being cast.
The mana abilities section would get folded into this section and would be removed.
As a bonus, they can be interacted with by cards that care about being 'Mana', like a Mana spell tutor.
---
Other idea :
Mana abilities could be indicated using some sort of special symbol.
If the ability uses the symbol, it's a mana ability, if not, it's not.
Lion's Eye Diamond and company would not have the symbol.
Only this symbol would determine whether it works this way, so no special conditions and all that.
Newbies who read the oracle text would immediately know whether it is one, without any need of deeper rules knowledge.
Problem is, that this would need errata for the affected cards (but then again, they did something similar with color indicators).
This would also fix Caged Sun. It would get the symbol.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 25, 2012 - 8:18PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2010
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Perhaps a new supertype would help for the spells we want to work the same way as mana abilities.
Since 'Mana' is basically a supertype for abilities, it could also work for spells.
Dark Ritual
B
Mana Instant
Add BBB to your mana pool.
The comp rules would get a section for that new supertype, which explains the timing of Mana spells and abilities.
Both mana abilities and mana spells would use the stack, but would resolve immediately after being cast.
The mana abilities section would get folded into this section and would be removed.
As a bonus, they can be interacted with by cards that care about being 'Mana', like a Mana spell tutor.
---
Other idea :
Mana abilities could be indicated using some sort of special symbol.
If the ability uses the symbol, it's a mana ability, if not, it's not.
Lion's Eye Diamond and company would not have the symbol.
Only this symbol would determine whether it works this way, so no special conditions and all that.
Newbies who read the oracle text would immediately know whether it is one, without any need of deeper rules knowledge.
Problem is, that this would need errata for the affected cards (but then again, they did something similar with color indicators).
This would also fix Caged Sun. It would get the symbol.
Wouldn't this make Storm decks absolutely insane?
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11 months ago ::
Jul 26, 2012 - 5:03AM
#28
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2010
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The mana spells would be uncounterable, but that's the only effect on storm decks.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 26, 2012 - 6:34AM
#29
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2012
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I like the idea of a special marker to denote mana abilties. I agree that it would help people unfamiliar with the rules to recognize them, and fixing Caged Sun  -- as well as the design space for tutors that you mentoned -- is a nice bonus. There's no need to use the stack at all if it's going to resolve immediately. My opinion is that changing the definition of "object" to explicitly include mana abilities is a better solution to that particular problem. I don't think that there should be "mana spells." It's one thing if an ability doesn't use the stack (few people have problems understanding that lands give you mana immediately, for example), but it's unintuitive for a spell to do the same thing. Even spells with split-second can be countered  . Note that I do not fully understand the pre-stack rules, and I have no idea how Dark Ritual and Counterspell  interacted at the time of their first printing. It's true that this technically opens the design space for WotC to print a targeted ability that doesn't use the stack because it's marked as a mana ability, but I don't expect to see one due to the power-level and accessibility issues it would cause.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 26, 2012 - 6:54AM
#30
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Date Joined:
Oct 15, 2009
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The mana spells would be uncounterable, but that's the only effect on storm decks.
So it would make Storm decks absolutely insane.
To clarify: the Storm decks we have are already barely-contained insanity. The only options we currently have of breaking them is well-timed disruption to trip up their mana chain or waiting for them to finish going off and then dropping Mindbreak Trap  or Flusterstorm  on the whole pile (and then praying they can't go off again). Making nearly all of their cards unanswerable could shoot their first-game win percentage through the roof and make effective sideboarding nearly impossible for their opponents.
I'm not saying this would change Legacy into Dredge vs. Storm, but it would be a step in that direction. Which makes it a very bad idea, in my book.
Note that I do not fully understand the pre-stack rules, and I have no idea how Dark Ritual and Counterspell interacted at the time of their first printing.
If I remember my Magic history correctly, both could be (and Counterspell had to be) cast during the process of casting another spell--which itself opened up another window during which other Interrupts could be cast, allowing someone to counter your Counterspell. But I believe that neither was actually added to the Batch; only spells which were "successfully cast" (not countered by Interrupts) made it there.
Rules Advisor as of 03/01/2013 Zammm = Batman "Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman
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