But even using the English definitions I don't understand how you think something that is affecting something has to target it. I never ever thought that global things like DoJ targetted. It just makes no sense. Even in English I don't have to target something at someone to affect it. I can be really angry at someone but one my best friends could be upset also. I wasn't targetting them with anything but they were affected anyways. Target =/= affect. In English and Magic. Also DnD =/= Magic so i don't know why you're comparing them. But no, Protection should not stop global effects because it has no way to know what color the source was, because the spells don't interact with eachother. Wrath of God goes boom and disappears. It doesn't care what is left or gone. It did its job and it's happy. Targetted spells have to make sure it's target is legal. WoG doesn't. There's no interaction between the cards at all.
Also, what on Earth does being a Sorcery have to do with anything?
Again, I will attempt to explain this:
If you and I are fighting a war, and I drop an arrow volley into your ranks of troops, it hits individual targets since I am "targeting" your ranks of soldiers. If I were to drop a missile into the same ranks of troops, individuals die. Some might live though, because if they were hiding behind some kind of "protection," like a shield or tree, then they wouldn't be "affected."
Oh, and apparently you don't know the story behind Magic. Magic was created because Richard Garfield didn't want to carry his Dungeons and Dragons book everywhere. Besides, Elves, dwarves, orcs, goblins, DRAGONS and SPELLS?!?! HELLO!! It just takes place in a different plane of existance. But, it owes it's existence to DnD. WoTC purchased the game and hired Richard Garfield to design it after he showed it to some people at a convention somewhere. It's all on Wikipedia.
Again, SOURCE. Read my earlier posts, man. Stop trolling without first READING the whole thread to understand the arguments being presented.
But YOU'RE NOT TARGETTING INDIVIDUAL SOLDIERS! You're targetting the field. And the soldiers hiding also weren't targetted. It the soldier behind a tree was targeted with that same bomb he would have died.
And based off it of it, sure but it has grown into its own COMPLETELY DIFFERENT game. Which is why we're not in the DnD part of the forums. They play nothing alike because they arent!
If anyone is trolling here it's you. I HAVE read all of the post. So don't assume anything when you clearly don't know. And I understand exactly what you're saying. You're saying you don't want to play Magic because you're too lazy to learn a few simple rules. Get over it or find another game. The rules are there for a reason, you can dislike them all you want but whining about them makes you look like a little child and it's obnoxious. Play the game or don't. You can play with you're own rules. It's part of the fun of the game but stop acting like the game needs to be completely redone because you can't be bothered to read some rules. The game and its rules are fine, wether you like them or not, oh well.
But even using the English definitions I don't understand how you think something that is affecting something has to target it. I never ever thought that global things like DoJ targetted. It just makes no sense. Even in English I don't have to target something at someone to affect it. I can be really angry at someone but one my best friends could be upset also. I wasn't targetting them with anything but they were affected anyways. Target =/= affect. In English and Magic. Also DnD =/= Magic so i don't know why you're comparing them. But no, Protection should not stop global effects because it has no way to know what color the source was, because the spells don't interact with eachother. Wrath of God goes boom and disappears. It doesn't care what is left or gone. It did its job and it's happy. Targetted spells have to make sure it's target is legal. WoG doesn't. There's no interaction between the cards at all.
Also, what on Earth does being a Sorcery have to do with anything?
Again, I will attempt to explain this:
If you and I are fighting a war, and I drop an arrow volley into your ranks of troops, it hits individual targets since I am "targeting" your ranks of soldiers. If I were to drop a missile into the same ranks of troops, individuals die. Some might live though, because if they were hiding behind some kind of "protection," like a shield or tree, then they wouldn't be "affected."
Oh, and apparently you don't know the story behind Magic. Magic was created because Richard Garfield didn't want to carry his Dungeons and Dragons book everywhere. Besides, Elves, dwarves, orcs, goblins, DRAGONS and SPELLS?!?! HELLO!! It just takes place in a different plane of existance. But, it owes it's existence to DnD. WoTC purchased the game and hired Richard Garfield to design it after he showed it to some people at a convention somewhere. It's all on Wikipedia.
Again, SOURCE. Read my earlier posts, man. Stop trolling without first READING the whole thread to understand the arguments being presented.
But YOU'RE NOT TARGETTING INDIVIDUAL SOLDIERS! You're targetting the field. And the soldiers hiding also weren't targetted. It the soldier behind a tree was targeted with that same bomb he would have died.
And based off it of it, sure but it has grown into its own COMPLETELY DIFFERENT game. Which is why we're not in the DnD part of the forums. They play nothing alike because they arent!
If anyone is trolling here it's you. I HAVE read all of the post. So don't assume anything when you clearly don't know. And I understand exactly what you're saying. You're saying you don't want to play Magic because you're too lazy to learn a few simple rules. Get over it or find another game. The rules are there for a reason, you can dislike them all you want but whining about them makes you look like a little child and it's obnoxious. Play the game or don't. You can play with you're own rules. It's part of the fun of the game but stop acting like the game needs to be completely redone because you can't be bothered to read some rules. The game and its rules are fine, wether you like them or not, oh well.
I was originally on here to resolve an argument over some rules. If you HAD read (which you say, but your words don't reflect your actions because YOU trolled and dredged up the argument which I closed 50 posts or something back!) my posts, I have already SAID I UNDERSTAND THE RULES!!! I just said that I wanted some streamlined rules, instead of the overly complex and hard to read (because they read like laws) Comprehensive Rules. That is all.
And I said DnD because Magic is an offshoot. Granted, Magic has changed, but the style is the same. They both take place in a fantasy realm, they have spells, wizards, etc. It was just a comparison, and I was trying to make a point. Again, go back and actually READ my posts to get the full effect of what I was talking about.
Now you are name-calling, and you are the troll. I haven't been acting like a "little child." That is the response of a person who doesn't understand what he "read," and wanted to argue. Like I said, this post is DEAD for all intents and purposes. People like YOU dredged up the argument and wanted to get involved. On the internet that is called one thing: trolling. YOU are doing it, and YOU need to stop. Because you don't have respect for the other people who already argued the SAME points over and over already. I closed the argument because I understood the rules, and wanted to move on. You didn't, and now we are here.
Just stop your pathetic whining. It's embarassing.
Though it's a moot point these days (Interrupts being obsolete), yet another point RW8 is mistaken about is the difference between "Instant" and "Interrupt" being a mere name change. Up to and including Urza's Saga or Urza's Legacy, "Instant" and "Interrupt" were two different card types, with different rules. Spells had "interrupt windows" which were technically a stage of casting them, where interrupts could be used but instants could not. For a while (Mirage through the advent of the 6E rules), "Mana Sources" were a third category of non-permanent, non-Sorcery spells, for cards like Dark Ritual (look at a Ritual from 5E or Mirage). Instants that prevented damage or regenerated things arguably should have been a fourth, because they too had different timing rules from everything else.
This was all simplified down to non-permanent spells all being Instants or Sorceries in 6E, but this was by no means the first appearance of the term Instant. There were Instants from the very beginning .
Wasn't that during the "stack" phase?
No, that was precisely when it ended.
Because I remember playing Unlimited and revised and Instants and Interrupts were pretty much the same thing back then.
No, you don't. At most you think you do. For one thing, I just linked you to seven different Instants (and those are just a sampling of six of the eight or so most famous ones, plus one personal favorite) from Alpha/Beta/Unlimited, which also had plenty of interrupts .
I remember something about the "stack" rules governing when to play Interrupts and when to play Instants, because the rules changed about Interrupts being played at certain points.
Completely wrong. The stack and Interrupts never co-existed; the stack was introduced at exactly the same time Interrupts were abolished. Before that, there were batches (for most spells and activated abilities) and series (for triggered abilities and interrupts) and they worked differently.
That is why around the Urza's Saga and 6th ed ruleset, they changed the Interrupts to Instants and got rid of the "stack" about 5 release sets later (something like 7th or some other set).
No, the stack is the defining point of the 6th edition changes.
And I don't know if I can convey how basic that fact is to the topic of this dicussion. Going into a discussion of the history of Magic rules changes without already knowing the stack was the centerpiece of 6th Edition is like, I don't know... going into a discussion of ice hockey without knowing it involves skating. It's that fundamental. Anyone worth taking seriously in such a discussion would already know it. (Thinking it was "got rid of" at some point, if that's meant to imply it no longer exists, is an even bigger blunder.)
A similar lack of grasp of the basics applies to the word "target". Even in ordinary English, targeting something implies some degree of discrimination, which bombs and grenades - and similarly, things like Wrath of God - lack. Just as bombs meant for, say, a munitions factory can kill civilians without having targeted them, so not everything that affects a creature (or other object) in Magic targets it.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
I think the problem comes in trying to compare M:tG terms to real life situations, but if you must, think of Protection more like a signal jammer than an 'X' proof vest.
My soldiers can't find you with their scanners, I can't shoot you down with my smart bullets, but I know you're there because you keep running over and sticking needles in my back. How will I deal with you? I know...Napalm.
Besides, there ARE people out there like me that don't a FULL grasp of the CR's, so stuff it.
There's nothing wrong with not knowing them well. That's what we're here for. But refusing to accept correction, even as you build your pile of (sometimes extremely basic) mistakes ever higher, is the behaviour of either a jerk or a troll.
What, for example, was your initial reaction to my Instant/Interrupt correction? To argue with it, claiming you remember differently, in the face of well-documented, verifiable (and in most cases EASILY verifiable) objective facts. In the process piling about three more rules mistakes on, some of them much more significant than the original one!
You have made it abundantly clear you're not interested in learning. You go out of your way to undermine anything that might turn this into a constructive discussion, then wonder why the disussion is less than constructive. Then you call OTHER people trolls.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
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