Question: Say it was cast... If it would not be allowed to enter the battlefield, where would it go and why? By my understanding, if 701.3b stops it from attaching from the stack... It doesn't move. That means... We endlessly have a spell on the stack. It can't be countered by the game rules - its target is 100% legal. A white aura spell targeting a creature with Prot. Black... And while I'm not the first to say this about the rules, That's rather unintuitive.
It's for this reason that if I were asked this question as a Judge at an event I would have the Aura enter the battlefield enchanting Bruna, and then become unattached and head to the graveyard.
It goes from being a card that can enchant Bruna to one that can't, absolutely. And there's no time when it's a white Aura on the battlefield. But it isn't black until it's on the battlefield. And I believe it entering the battlefield, and having all of its "new" characteristics determined, happen at the same time. Then the state-based effects occur, it's unattached blah blah blah.
Question: Say it was cast... If it would not be allowed to enter the battlefield, where would it go and why? By my understanding, if 701.3b stops it from attaching from the stack... It doesn't move. That means... We endlessly have a spell on the stack. It can't be countered by the game rules - its target is 100% legal. A white aura spell targeting a creature with Prot. Black... And while I'm not the first to say this about the rules, That's rather unintuitive.
I'd say that in such a case, the spell would be exiled à la "end the turn" effects .
Rules question? Have you read the Basic rulebook already? No? Why not take some time to do that?
How to autocard (do this to specify a card in your posts): Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus . Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One .
Ehhh... The closest thing I can find is 608.3b: If a permanent spell resolves but its controller can’t put it onto the battlefield, that player puts it into its owner’s graveyard.
The problem I have with applying that rule is that I think it -can- enter the battlefield, because it's not black until it does so. Only then do we have a problem, which SBA take care of.
303.4g If an Aura is entering the battlefield and there is no legal object or player for it to enchant, the Aura remains in its current zone, unless that zone is the stack. In that case, the Aura is put into its owner’s graveyard instead of entering the battlefield.
No, I don't see this interaction as substantially different.
The aura never gets to the battlefield IMO, no life gain.
MtG Rules Advisor & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ DJ Vortex
DCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320
Wit found in Rules Q&A
RPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?"
Thanks, Enigma. I missed that one. Kinda blows a hole in my theory but I would still think that it isn't black until it enters the battlefield. Much simpler if we were dealing with something that makes the card itself black away from the battlefield... But the card in Chaikov's example causes it to be black while it's a permanent. I'm not really sure the game rules can put up a giant stop sign in between zones and say "nope, turn around and go back"
Much simpler if we were dealing with something that makes the card itself black away from the battlefield...
This was previously stated, and Painter's Servant was given as an example.
The difference is it's the "T" of "DEBT" that matters with the Painter, while it's the "E" of "DEBT" that matters in the scenario being discussed. People are used to dealing with the "T".
But the card in Chaikov's example causes it to be black while it's a permanent. I'm not really sure the game rules can put up a giant stop sign in between zones and say "nope, turn around and go back"
Then what do you think 303.4g ("remains in its current zone instead") does if it's not a stop sign at the border?
Here's the way I see it. If Divine Favor is not on the battlefield, it's not a permanent, so not black, and therefore a legal attachment for Bruna until it actually becomes attached, at which point it falls off.
What the ability is trying to do in this case is move a white aura card from the graveyard to the battlefield attached to a permanent with protection from black. I think it's relevant to the discussion that it is not, in any sense or at any time, trying to attach a permanent to Bruna. So this is pretty much fine, except for the fact that once the aura is a permanent, it's going to be black. So we look to the rules to see whether that fact is relevant.
303.4. Some enchantments have the subtype “Aura.” An Aura enters the battlefield attached to an object or player. What an Aura can be attached to is defined by its enchant keyword ability (see rule 702.5, “Enchant"). Other effects can limit what a permanent can be enchanted by.
This rule doesn't tell us anything about what "other effects" might be.
303.4f If an Aura is entering the battlefield under a player’s control by any means other than by resolving as an Aura spell, and the effect putting it onto the battlefield doesn’t specify the object or player the Aura will enchant, that player chooses what it will enchant as the Aura enters the battlefield. The player must choose a legal object or player according to the Aura’s enchant ability and any other applicable effects.
There's a couple of problems with using this rule. First, it states that it only applies in cases where the effect doesn't specify the object the aura will enchant. Bruna's ability specifies that the aura will enchant Bruna. Second, it doesn't actually answer our initial question: Is the effect "permanents are black" applicable simply because we know that Divine Favor is about to become a permanent?
303.4g If an Aura is entering the battlefield and there is no legal object or player for it to enchant, the Aura remains in its current zone, unless that zone is the stack. In that case, the Aura is put into its owner’s graveyard instead of entering the battlefield.
This still doesn't tell us whether enchanting Bruna is illegal, it just instructs us what to do in the case that it is.
So the rules are sort of foggy on this point.
@Ikegami: I was referring to the phrase "aura cards that could enchant it" on Bruna herself, rather than any rule. Could Divine Favor enchant Bruna? Not if it's a nonland permanent, because those are black.
@all: Are you guys saying that if Mycosynth Lattice (with a timestamp previous to Shifting Sky ), March of the Machines , Conspiracy (naming Saproling), and Life and Limb are all in play, this would be legal? Or is it immediately apparent that a creature can't be attached to another creature, even if the sky's color-change effect doesn't apply anymore?
I believe that there is nothing stopping the game from moving Divine Favor from the graveyard to Bruna .
Here's the way I see it. If Divine Favor is not on the battlefield, it's not a permanent, so not black, and therefore a legal attachment for Bruna until it actually becomes attached, at which point it falls off.
The people presenting this argument keep relying on
It's not black until it's attached.
while ignoring that the following is equally true:
It's not attached until it's black.
Please explain how you can attach a black aura to something with protection from black. You seem to have forgotten to do so.
It's not black until it's attached, and it's not attached until it's black. Those might both be true, but neither should imply an order of operations.
Nothing is trying to attach a black aura to something with protection from black. Bruna is trying to move a white aura card onto the battlefield attached to her.
