I'm going to do some free-form brainstorming here about the plant-people, just to throw some ideas out there. I haven't thought any of this out, so it's bound to be rough, but maybe we can get some ideas circulating.
For place-holder purposes, I will be referring to them as the Lodau, but that's only because I don't want to keep calling them "plant people" over and over again.
The Lodau don't have a society, but that doesn't mean they can't have a "community." But to them, I think their sense of community extends beyond other Lodau. Barinellos mentioned that he thinks they would view themselves as nature and that their primary motivation is to exist. The logical extension of that is that they what nature to continue to exist, and both nature and themselves (one in the same, to the Lodau) to thrive.
With this in mind, I think there a few ways we can go. For one thing, they can cause things to Thrive , thus playing into the "power matters" theme green is always going for in this setting.
However, I think they're most useful and most flavorful as mana-ramps, and with that, personally I like the idea of doing something along the lines of Arbor Elf . I like the idea of the Lodau interacting directly with the lands rather than producing mana themselves, although one or two of them probably could.
Also, we could have them sacrifice themselves, either for mana or to search for lands, but that seems too finite for the Lodau. How about just a death trigger ability to play up fertilization? I guess we should decide about how far the Lodau go with their inseparability with nature. Meaning, if something were going to destroy two trees, and a Lodau could stop that something, but at the cost of its own life, would it do so? Or does it have a certain threshold of self-preservation?
As for the Lotus Druid thing, maybe the upper tier of Lodau, the strongest, most evolved of them, are "Lotus" rather than "Plant," but the name of the creature would still indicate the connection to the rest of the species.
Then, stylistically, how would they look? The only thing I've been visualizing is that they must have arms and something similar to hands, but honestly, even the heads I don't have a solid picture in mind. I do think tall and slender is the way to go, but we definitely want them distinct from elves, and I think we want something with a bit more of an edge than just walking flowers.
Hm... Ok, I get what you're saying. How about a "keywords matter" theme? Something that messes around witht he Evergreen keywords in black. Black seems to have a lot of specialists, so we could start there. Maybe a cycle of uncommon "lords" that say something like "Creatures you control with Deathtouch have Lifelink" (I'd imagine it would be a Gorgon) Or "Creatures you control with Lifelink have Intimidate". You could have a variety of fetch spells that fetch for creatures with the chosen keyword, and you could spread the keyword out over all the tribes so that it feels less like "race matters" and more like "abilities matter" (I would imagine Gorgons having Intimidate and Deathtouch make plenty of mechanical sense.) Black, off the top of my head, Gets Deathtouch, Lifelink, Flying, Intimidate (Since fear is defunct), Haste secondary to red, Trample rarely at all, and first strike secondary to red, and Regeneration.
That's definitely an interesting direction to take it in and I don't think I've seen designs like that before. Only thing that I can think of is some of the future sight Muraganda cards like Imperiosaur and Muraganda Petroglyphs . That being said, I don't think this is a good direction to take an entire color in. It's an interesting theme, but making it so prevalent will mean we'll have to overcost basically everything in black to keep things balanced. (Abilities generally add 1 to the mana cost. Not always, but most of the time.) so we either end up with weak low end creatures or strong overcosted creatures. Not a way to make black playable, particularly since they tend to be weaker than most other creatures to start with.
Another idea is to play on Black's ritualistic nature. It seems like everything black wants to do is steeped in mysticism, if only for the sake of being mysterious. To this end, you could have use Fateseal and "the top of my opponents library matters" theme. Something like "Destroy Target creature. Fateseal 1" and then a creature that says "When this creature enters the battlefield, target opponent reveals the top card of his/her library. If it's a basic land card, " " gains landwalk of that cards land type." Of course there are a variety of other uses. My concern with this is it stepping on Blue's scry theme, but it would make for some interesting matches between the two colors. It also may be too wordy.
Fateseal wouldn't be too bad, but it does play very weirdly with scry. Best to give this a pass I think.
On the same note as being ritualistic, you could insert a few cards with the Offering mechanic into black. It seems clunky, and I dislike Kamigawa mechanics as a rule, but it could work.
I'd considered trying to find someplace for Offering because I actually like the mechanic, so I find it interesting that you suggest it as well. There's not enough space to work with as far as making it a fullscale theme, but since you brought it up, I think this would be a good time to do a vertical cycle in black with it. So far we have 2 other vert cycles in white and sort-of green, so adding another doesn't seem too bad to me.
Lastly, black wants power. Dominion. It wants its minions to show up when it needs them, and it wants to be able to use them. Various cards that fetch and put things on top of your library ( Like Vampiric Tutor ) could be a theme. Maybe assassin cards fetch for zombies, angels fetch for specters, gorgons fetch for a varitey of spells, and spectres fetch for lands. Uncommon, rare, and mythic versions with these abilities could put these cards into your hand and fetch multiples. This may be a nightmare to balance, though. Maybe something more like Cateran Brute and his ilk.
I will continue to brainstorm, but this is what I've got for now.
It might work for a mini-theme, but I don't think it's strong enough to carry the entire color and like you said, it's kind of a nightmare on balance. Man, this is a lot harder than I would have thought...
I'm going to do some free-form brainstorming here about the plant-people, just to throw some ideas out there. I haven't thought any of this out, so it's bound to be rough, but maybe we can get some ideas circulating.
For place-holder purposes, I will be referring to them as the Lodau, but that's only because I don't want to keep calling them "plant people" over and over again.
Understandable, though at some point we'll have to come up with an actual name for them. This is probably a name that the other races will have given them, because I honestly don't see these beings as having a traditional source of communication. Possibly a language based on scent or movement... which is just making me think of the Hanar and the Elcor.... huh....
The Lodau don't have a society, but that doesn't mean they can't have a "community." But to them, I think their sense of community extends beyond other Lodau. Barinellos mentioned that he thinks they would view themselves as nature and that their primary motivation is to exist. The logical extension of that is that they what nature to continue to exist, and both nature and themselves (one in the same, to the Lodau) to thrive.
They are definitely social, because they do reproduce by cross pollination, which implies some physical intimacy with each other rather than the purely asexual relationship plants can have, but I don't think they'd have any recognized "community" so much as they'd have some sense of "ecosystem" and how they fit into it themselves.
With this in mind, I think there a few ways we can go. For one thing, they can cause things to Thrive , thus playing into the "power matters" theme green is always going for in this setting.
I can stamp an Approvedon this.
However, I think they're most useful and most flavorful as mana-ramps, and with that, personally I like the idea of doing something along the lines of Arbor Elf . I like the idea of the Lodau interacting directly with the lands rather than producing mana themselves, although one or two of them probably could.
I sort of disagree, I feel like it separates them thematically from nature too much for them to manipulate it rather than produce the mana itself like the lands. Besides that, if we were to go to a land manipulation theme instead of mana accel, we'd honestly be best off modeling them after Dryad Arbor and that sort of throws things out of the curve.
Also, we could have them sacrifice themselves, either for mana or to search for lands, but that seems too finite for the Lodau. How about just a death trigger ability to play up fertilization? I guess we should decide about how far the Lodau go with their inseparability with nature. Meaning, if something were going to destroy two trees, and a Lodau could stop that something, but at the cost of its own life, would it do so? Or does it have a certain threshold of self-preservation?
It probably wouldn't care about the destruction so much as replacing that nature. So maybe a reprint of Harrow or Harrow with legs, either with ETB or a death trigger.
As for the Lotus Druid thing, maybe the upper tier of Lodau, the strongest, most evolved of them, are "Lotus" rather than "Plant," but the name of the creature would still indicate the connection to the rest of the species.
Nah, I'm seeing them as a subset, definitely, but not as an evolution. Just a subspecies, a type of the plant beings.
Then, stylistically, how would they look? The only thing I've been visualizing is that they must have arms and something similar to hands, but honestly, even the heads I don't have a solid picture in mind. I do think tall and slender is the way to go, but we definitely want them distinct from elves, and I think we want something with a bit more of an edge than just walking flowers.
That's all I've got for now.
Hands, arms, legs, definitely humanoid, but I want to make sure they have some drift away from the standard humanoid features. Honestly, I see their faces as sort of huge leafy masks. The exact features are up in the air for me too though.
Anyway, I've been wracking my brain for ideas on black's mechanical theme, and I've had little success so far, so just to hopefully keep the conversation going on it, I'll post what I've got.
So far, this set really doesn't have any "new" mechanics, just old mechanic used in a new way, like convoke in red. With this in mind, I think black could really use a new mechanic. Now, in this set, black seems to revolve around multiple aspects of death. The Gorgons have their death/life interactions with sangromancy, the black angels have necromancy, and the Moonfolk cultists are assassins, so I think whatever mechanic we come up with should play into either death itself, sort of like morbid but with different flavor, or with the graveyard.
How about something like "Whenever a creature dies, or enters the battlefield from a graveyard, EFFECT" Then we can play with reanimation effects for the necromancy. Also, we may be able to give a different identity for the Wraiths, allowing them to be cycled (or something similar) and then cast from the graveyard.
Draconic Wraith - Creature - Dragon Wraith Arise (If this card was put into your graveyard from anywhere this turn, you may return it to the battlefield by paying its mana cost.) Flying, haste Mountaincycling 3/4
This isn't meant to be what that card would be, necessarily, just an example of what I'm thinking for the Wraith ability. Also, it need not be an actual form of cycling, it can be discarded to cause any effect, direct damage in this case, maybe.
But this would also feed in to the black mechanic of caring about things that die as well as things that enter the battlefield from the graveyard. Furthermore, it answers the much earlier question we had about what to give the gorgons, since deathtouch would feed the mechanic, whereas petrification does not.
The Nightmare Angel had some good parts, but it all felt very disconnected from its origins. The character didn't feel right, far far too aggressive. Passion is the heart of an Ophanim, not rage and violence, which seems to have made up the centerpiece of him. Even as an exception, I don't feel it works. Aside from that, I'm not fond of any gold cards being in this set for the YMTC stuff. As a total aside, I like the name "Balahiel" for this character, even if we aren't using the story. (Derived from the hebrew word "Balaha" which means nightmare. Combined with the -el suffix, it means "Nightmare of God".)
As for the suggestion, I've considered making up a new mechanic for the theme, but it honestly just doesn't feel something I'm comfortable with. Same reason I never did anything to make up new classes. That being said, I do see that something could probably be done around "graveyard matters" even if that is a really cliche thing to do for black. Automatically going to eliminate flashback, morbid, unearth, and threshold, all for different reasons. (wasn't there something from Coldnsap that cared about graveyards?)
And wraith have a very specific mechanic already and don't need to be confused with any other themes. They're like the guildless from Ravnica, not something that I want to cross over into the other themes. They should be open for play in their respective color. Cycling for them isn't intuitive at all either.
You talking about the gorgons has pushed me over into finally deciding what to assign them. I think I'm going with the Basilisk effect. I feel it is the most balanced of the options, even if it isn't the most solidly resonant. That still doesn't really solve the problems regarding the sangromancy vs necromancy schism we have, and our solution might be to have to just do away with the "popular" magic and expanding the necromancer's out beyond just the monks. I'm not terribly fond of it, but we might very well be trying to do too much with limited resources. It should be tightened up, even if I am loathe to narrow them down.
Oh, and if anyone is keeping track of reprints I want in, Angelheart Vial .
Nightmare Angel - Fair enough, I'll scrap it and rewrite. I like the idea of discovering a demonic temple, but the rest I'm not too attached to, although I do think the idea of an Ophanim angel resenting being "restrained" has a lot of potential. As for the name, I wasn't really happy with it; I like yours better. Mine was a butchering combo of shadow and flame, but I forget in which language (latin, I suspect, but I don't remember off-hand.) Anyway, I'll come up with version two in a bit.
Black Mechanical identity - The Coldsnap graveyard mechanic was Recover, and I hate it (personally). It reads "(Whenever a creature is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, you may pay {COST}. If you do, return this card from your graveyard to your hand. Otherwise, exile this card.)" I know you're against Morbid, and I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, but the Morbid trigger is, to me, a lot more fluid and versatile than the Recover one. Other already-keyworded graveyard mechanics (that I don't think have been mentioned yet although I could be wrong) are gravestorm, retrace, and soulshift, but none of these seem to be what you're looking for either.
Your mentioning of Coldsnap actually put another idea in my mind for black, though, and it's ironically on a white card. What do you think of using the effect we see on [c]Adarkar Valkyrie[c]? I can most definately see your black angels using that effect, maybe with a "It is now a spirit in addition to its other types" tacked on at the end.
Actually interacting with the graveyard is tricky, since people don't seem to like having to keep track of something they don't normally keep track of, so if we do that, maybe it should be like a toggle switch, either on or off, something like "If there is a creature card in your graveyard, EFFECT." or something like that.
What is the Wraith effect? I didn't know you had settled on one. Though I do see your point about interacting with the other colors.
No, the angel finding long long long lost demonic ruins is fine with me, I think that bit works. Though, just to help you get the mind set in, part of what the conflict of this angel could be, is to play the aspect of the individual. The Ophanim are all bound together through the Voice, so what about an angel who did not become part of the chorus? One who recklessly chose individuality in a greater degree than all those they would call sibling? Have the key conflict in this story be one of isolation, which is an alien experience for the Ophanim, who can normally perceive the song of their kin in the backs of their mind. (Something halfway akin to the Kithkin thoughtweft and halfway akin to the Selesnyan lifesong, but instead of sharing community like the previous two, it's an expression of emotion. Empathy rather than Telepathy. That's what alters it to make it red. They do it to feelrather than to bond.) And the restraint is just the wrong thing. They don't bind up their powers, they don't close off what makes them what they are. They merely just do not use it. It still burns there waiting to be fed, but they choose to ignore it rather than let it run rampant. It's a philosophical restraint, not one of actual magical safeguards.
Gravestorm and Soulshift might have potential. Mostly I worry about how implementation of gravestorm could be done and soulshift specifies spirits, which isn't the right message for the corporeal and repurposed dead that black has access to.
Adarkar Valkyrie would be fine as a one of, but would cause total breakdown in balance terms. The "toggle" effect is too reminiscent of the Incarnations like Anger and the like.
Really, for this, I think we have to set aside the totality of black, because the thematic identities of the angels and the moonfolk are already set. The problem is all stemming from the gorgons/zombies. At the very basic, we have what amounts to two factions vying for attention and it's throwing off the entire black theme. Sangromancy vs Necromancy. I don't think we have room for both in terms of mechanics. And if we don't, then it means we need to restructure the gorgon society, as big a pain as that is. I just see no way around it.
Wraiths have always had a swampwalk theme, so in playing with the concept of the wastelands, they adopt the mechnanic of "nonbasic" landwalk. Perhaps combining the higher levels with a Bloodghast ability to thin out the number of landwalkers we have. Spirits, meanwhile, will occupy some of the smaller spots across more colors and have a shadow ability. They'll probably top out at 3/1, possibly with a spark elemental death trigger. Should still be easy enough to kill rather than take the 3 damage.
About the plant beings: So, visually, we have a few different directions they could go. Firstly) Basically humanoid. This would include a face and would likely be the most comfortable and easily inspiring to grok. The downside is, of course, how unoriginal it runs. Secondly) We could make them go the opposite direction and make them wildly incomprehensible. While this offers a lot more freedom, it also gives them very very little direction. Thirdly) A compromise of the two, where we retain the basic humanoid shape, but dehumanize it through the stripping of facial features and odd biology. This gives them a more alien vibe, but keeps them inside the realms of the familiar. The downside is this is very easy to create an uncanny valley. Fourthly) A further compromise between the first and third options. Give them human features, but strip them of what is unessential. After all, why would plants need mouths if they communication through scent and movement? They photosynthesize for nutrition, so mouths seem really superflous. I think taking a logical look at the plants is going to be our greatest asset, and then applying overlap between human biology and floral biology is key.
Fourth option seems best, so as silly as it is, the best thing to do now is examine the function of each of mankind's major recognizable traits. Hair, eyes, mouth, nose, ears, torso, etc etc. For the record too, I am seeing them as bipedal. Wispy and thin, but bipedal all the same.
Edit: This is going to sound like wildly more information than needed for any sort of description, but instead of electrochemical synapses, the plant beings work off of a fluid based neuro transmitter delivered through their body by a modified root nervous system? Changes in the quality of the chemicals the plants produce naturally in their bodies travelling along the water doubling as both circulatory and nervous system alerts them to changes to their homeostasis. This means they would have some cavity similar to a heart, but their entire body could function similarly to lungs so long as they have leaves, which means they should have leaves, probably in semi-tight clusters reminiscent of clothing or the like just for sake of familiarity. So that leaves the question of what kind of skin they would have and the underlying "muscle" structure (which would probably double as their skeletal structure additionally). They'll have eyes, since plants are by nature photoreactive, and I say they should have something akin to hair because... I want them to. Their face is probably a specialized "leaf" with markings that are suited to perceive light and is thicker than normal to protect their "nerve" center, distinct as it would be from their "heart". Thin bodies, almost serpentine, with sharp angles instead of the curved boniness of the human skeletal structure...
As for the name of the race, there is probably some research to be done regarding the Mandrake since that does have some ties to both general folklore and specifically biblical mythology...
Id see plant people having something akin to an exoskeleton seeing how many plants have hard shell like exteriors on their plant stem and trees have bark. Instead of noses and ears they have antennas/tendrils/hair-like spines designed to pick up scents and sounds, placed strategicly on the places of the head where it is the most practical.
