Intro-Packs, though, tend to be pointless pieces of garbage, since they are mostly unplayable, even in casual groups. I don't hate the decklists from these 2 decks.
I totally disagree. Intro packs are far from pointless or garbage, they just aren't aimed at you, clearly. They are an excellent introductory product for new players and when properly constructed they can be a lot of fun to evolve and build on.
Case in point, I've been playing magic since fallen empires and precon/theme/intro decks are one of the main ways I've stuck with the game. I buy them and evolve them. I only ever play casual and some of my favourite decks were, once upon a time, intro products.
My only criticisms of intro packs would be that sometimes they are not well crafted and really don't work having a much lower power level than other intro packs, or just not really doing anything they propose to do, and that they no longer come with a 60 card box, which is a pretty big mistake by WOTC in my estimation. If they came with boxes I'd buy more of them.
It's weird that you support this product. You've found 4 things you don't like about them as your "only" criticism.
The reason you say they are far from pointless, is basically because you use them if I understand you correctly? It doesn't seem like you were able to give an actual reason why it's a good product, or preferable to event decks. The fact that you need to modify them is not a plus either, as new players will expect the deck to be playable as is, and also learn bad deckbuilding habits from them.
I mean, you said yourself that the decks often don't work. That's not a minor issue for a pre-constructed deck, that's what makes it worth buying ot not. Why would anyone want a product that doesn't work?
The only time I ever see precons or intro packs being decent, is when the theme they use has so much synergy that it works reguardless of the deck being badly built (ex: Affinity). And then it beats the hell out of any other pre constructed deck, which are no longer worth buying (or even less so).
"That said, when Delver finally gets some new tricks, and develops a new identity, we once again get to root for the underdog, the rogue of the group." "I think we all turn our heads to the fact that Delver is involved when we seeTalrand, Sky Summoner and Augur of Bolas teaming up to form the Voltron of instants and sorceries that we all secretly enjoy"
I think Conley Woods is forgetting we all aren't spikes/play blue, and a lot of us hate delver of secrets/temporarily quit standard because of its douche powers.
It's weird that you support this product. You've found 4 things you don't like about them as your "only" criticism.
I said my only criticisms. Can you name 4+ things you don't like about magic? I bet you can. Do you only support ideas or products that have fewer than 4 criticisms you could possibly level against them?
The reason you say they are far from pointless, is basically because you use them if I understand you correctly? It doesn't seem like you were able to give an actual reason why it's a good product, or preferable to event decks. The fact that you need to modify them is not a plus either, as new players will expect the deck to be playable as is, and also learn bad deckbuilding habits from them.
No you don't seem to understand me correctly. If you want reasons they are a good product, sure, they:
sell well introduce complexity to a new player in about the right quantity actively encourage deckbuilding by going just far enough in any given direction come with a booster, introducing the randomised collecting/upgrading part of magic highlight the themes of the set/block
Anecdotally I know about 10 people who have started playing magic in the last 5 years. Every single one of them bought intro decks, most of them went on to buy duel decks also. All of them have decks which began life as intro decks (or precons or themes).
I could go on but there are plenty of good articles out there about this subject. One written by the ertai's lament blogger is linked a couple of posts up.
Why are they preferable to event decks? In what sense do you mean? There's room for both products because they are doing very different things. Intro decks are cheaper, have a different target audience and are designed to introduce deckbuilding. There is way, way less ncentive to deckbuild with an event deck and a lot of the work is done for you. You might as well ask how is an event deck preferable to buying singles and building a netdeck. Frankly I find the question weird.
I mean, you said yourself that the decks often don't work. That's not a minor issue for a pre-constructed deck, that's what makes it worth buying ot not. Why would anyone want a product that doesn't work?
No, I didn't. You need to stop putting words in my mouth. I said sometimes they don't work. Not all precons/themedecks/intro packs are created equal. For example Deadspread's synergies and themes simply didn't work in actual play, Izzet gizmometry's absolutely did, so did Eldritch Onslaught. This isn't something WOTC has improved at, unfortunately. Every fifth or so intro pack doesn't work well enough, some of these being worse than others of course. That doesn't make the product a failure, it just leaves room for improvement.
The only time I ever see precons or intro packs being decent, is when the theme they use has so much synergy that it works reguardless of the deck being badly built (ex: Affinity). And then it beats the hell out of any other pre constructed deck, which are no longer worth buying (or even less so).
They aren't badly built. They are built so they can be easily improved and usually in multiple directions. Frankly if an intro pack was so linear and synergistic that it could really only evolve in one direction, /that/ would be a real design failure. What you would consider a 'decent' constructed affinity deck would probably make a terrible intro pack.
They aren't excellent introductory products. If they were, I wouldn't be forced to explain how important synergy and running multiple copies of a card is important to every single person who bought one and wants to improve it in the Casual boards. If they were excellent products, they'd teach players to have a solid deck that works as they want, and not a random pack of cards that resemble a deck. Sure, I'm generalizing, there are some Intro Packs that aren't garbage, but those are the exceptions. The great majority of them is very, very bad, and they teach new players nothing but "hey, get a shiny rare and stick it in this deck, it will be awesome!".
Also, I'd like to reinforce that I'm talking about Intro Packs. I really liked purchasing Precons and Theme Decks, They seemed to be better built and work better. Nowadays we mostly get a random pile of cards that fit the chosen colors, and might have some strategy going on if you try to notice it. I still remember the Theme Decks from Fifth Dawn, Planar Chaos and Eventide as the best ones, the kind of deck you could open and play with. They were very good introductory products. They taught players how to make a good deck and how to improve them. But they don't anymore.
Thanks for elaborating.
I agree the mirrodin block precons were a high point in some respects. Special Forces, Sacrificial Bam and in particular Nuts and Bolts were all pick up and play decks with very specific synergies and goals. They were great fun. However I think they would have been a better introductory product if they had included a booster and been a little looser. By that I mean been pulling in a few more directions. Not by much, just a little. As it stands Nuts and Bolts only readily evolves in one direction, maybe two at a stretch. The kind of construction it pushes toward is just getting more of the better cards in that deck so you have four ofs. Now of course an experienced player could evolve it in a whole load of different ways. I turned mine into a combo mill deck, for instance. But to a new player I don't think it fires off the imagination so well as it might if it hadn't been so tight.
My experience of new players is that they very quickly understand the limitations of those intro decks and upgrade them multiple times moving closer to a deck that consistently does what they want (and what that thing is can very quite a lot, which I think is a strength of intro packs). It's an important learning process. Simply being told 'have 4 of each card' isn't the same thing as realising from yourself how important consistency is and implementing that in the deck.
If they are taking an intro deck and getting smashed by someone with a constructed casual deck which is clearly way better that's not really an issue with the intro product. It's counterproductive to go crushing noobs that way. Magic should be played with decks of roughly equivalent power, for obvious reasons.
Oh like those lands were hard to get anyway and not worth a reprint and rarity change.
Stop deleting my posts you jackwagon! Dictators prefer an unarmed population. MTGS, for all your nazi loving needs. Thank you SO much for turning Magic standard into Yugioh. Decks I playSpoiler:Show
From The Vaults is the worst Magic product ever: overcosted, ultra limited. I'll gladly pass (not that I'd have been able to get one under 50€ ormore...).
Rules question? Have you read the Basic rulebook already? No? Why not take some time to do that?
How to autocard (do this to specify a card in your posts): Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus . Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One .
From The Vaults is the worst Magic product ever: overcosted, ultra limited. I'll gladly pass (not that I'd have been able to get one under 50€ ormore...).
I can't say I'd ever buy a FtV either. Too expensive and I don't actually like the new art in most cases. But I'm not really a collector. For some people it's probably really tempting.
Yes, FTV tends to be too rich for my blood, too. Yes, most of the alternate art they showed looks worse to me too (Grove of the Burnwillows especially; they old one looks like it belongs next to Starry Night in a museum, this one looks like...I am not honestly sure, really, but it surely lacks the quiet beauty of the original). Yes it will be really hard to find. But sweet diety of your choice I love that new look for Dryad Arbor's frame. A Forest... with P/T. I need it in my deck RIGHT NOW.
