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EDIT: A few people in this thread claim the demo versions of DOTP never have mulligans, so don't take this to mean the final version definitely won't.

Hey everyone,

If you've been following along you know that I have a press preview version of MTG DOTP2013. While it's not the final build, it does have a lot of the cards and the core mechanics of the game. I've been making preview videos and notes about my observations so far. I'd be doing it faster, but I'm also moving this week, and other work/life obligations take time!

Someone asked me to test if it was possible to start 2HG with 2 Serra Ascendants. I quickly learned that you couldn't play 2 of the same deck in 2HG in D13. But I noticed something else.

I wasn't able to mulligan. Each time (and I have it taped, I will post a video later) I started, my hand was dealt and my turn (or opponent team's turn) started. I had to restart the matches 100+ times. Actually, due to terrible luck, I never even drew a turn 1 Serra Ascendant. Then I began to think it wasn't just luck. I went back and watched some of my dozens of draws and I noticed something else.

I didn't get mana screwed or flooded once in 100+ draws.

In fact, every single hand I had drawn had between 2 and 5 lands. Never 0. Never 1. Never 6. Never 7.

While it is still technically possible I had incredibly strange luck, I am going to go ahead and say that DOTP2013 has no mulligan option and instead guarantees a balanced opening hand. While I still need to do more testing, I'll post a video later of my draws and you can make your own conclusions.

I still wonder if my inability to draw a turn 1 Serra Ascendant is just bad luck or if the game prevents you from drawing it turn 1 in 2HG as some kind of "balance" mechanism. I don't imagine that would be too popular with you all. But I'm sure you'd also not like to face a 6/6 lifelink flyer on turn 1.

Anyway, discuss away. I'll post more info/video when I get it.

Cheers.

I hope this doesn't extend to FFA as well. Sadness.

Mulligans are a critical part of Magic, I certainly hope that they are not removed as this affects a given deck's strategy.  I hope this information proves untrue for the release version.

Well everything was way too good to be true, i hope this is only for the demo version coz it sounds way too bad to be true

I think no mulligans is awesome. The real game doesn't have it so why should this? I am not a fan of not having totally random hands. This whoel balanced thing sounds fixed in some way.

@Aaron: the game does have mulligans.


Anyway: I like having no mulligans, though it should've been an option. I like duels vs the AI, and mulligans pose a major problem against them: it gives me an unwanted unfair advantage, since I'm better with deciding when to mulligan. So, in that aspect I like having no mulligans.

However, getting cheated hands is BAD, BAD, BAD. If it's true, then that alone will already make me skip this game. I want a FAIR game, not a game where both players get cheated hands...

No mulligans is a bad idea, not just because you dont have chance at a decent opening hand, but the amount of people who will quit now. If my starting hand isnt what i want, im forced to play through a whole game, or quit like a child?

Hopefully, with this not being final release they will of left the mechanic out (although why would they leave this out and add everything else?)

@OP : Is this the IPAD version you were testing, or the console version?

Maybe I worte this wrong. Ok so what i meant is you don't get a "free" mulligan, right?? I dont actually know but i dont think you do. Second I was saying I do prefer us to have totally random hands. I don't want 3 land and a good curved hand everytime. I just don't thik that would be much fun.

What puzzles me is that they don't have any reason to do this. Why remove mulligans? Who was complaining about them?

But we should think positive and hope Stevo is right.

I'll assume false for the time being: You can Mulligan, but just not in the version he was playing.

If he's playing a promotional version, it makes a crap-ton of sense that they would prevent that version from giving sub-optimal starts. Promoting the game with unenjoyable starts could be construed as slightly misleading, but people can be easily turned off by s**t opening hands.

I withhold judgement.

Jun 9, 2012 -- 2:02PM, ocal wrote:

No mulligans is a bad idea, not just because you dont have chance at a decent opening hand, but the amount of people who will quit now. If my starting hand isnt what i want, im forced to play through a whole game, or quit like a child?

Hopefully, with this not being final release they will of left the mechanic out (although why would they leave this out and add everything else?)

@OP : Is this the IPAD version you were testing, or the console version?

I guess im in the minority here, but I'm actually quite happy with about everything you posted here wing.
No double decking? Awesome
No mana screw / flood? Awesome
Not drawing serra ascendent in opening hand? ... I'm on the fence here, I think a better choice would to just implement a *this card is banned in 2hg* stipulation to the card making it only assessible to 1v1. However since they did add it in, not being able to draw it turn 1 just seems odd to me.

Edit: Forgot why I quoted you :P You have a good point about people rage quiting as soon as they get an opening hand they don't like.. I can easily see that happening.

DotP 2012 demo version also had no mulligan option. But when you purchase the full-game unlock, mulligan also got "unlocked".

Jun 9, 2012 -- 2:21PM, hubin_at wrote:

DotP 2012 demo version also had no mulligan option. But when you purchase the full-game unlock, mulligan also got "unlocked".

This, thank you.

Stop worrying people.

Jun 9, 2012 -- 2:27PM, Splattercat wrote:

Jun 9, 2012 -- 2:21PM, hubin_at wrote:

DotP 2012 demo version also had no mulligan option. But when you purchase the full-game unlock, mulligan also got "unlocked".

This, thank you.

Stop worrying people.

LOL, can you blame us all? Were all sitting on the edge of our seats, DOTP 2013 looks sooo good, its taken ideas from both games to make it look good...but is it too good to be true? 

Jun 9, 2012 -- 2:21PM, hubin_at wrote:

DotP 2012 demo version also had no mulligan option. But when you purchase the full-game unlock, mulligan also got "unlocked".

Did not know this. Hopefully, it is true.

I didn't want to outright alarm people but I hope you understand I am merely reporting exactly what I am experiencing.

Yeah, this seems to be the case for the press build. I assume this will be made the "demo version" once the game is out. The post above almost confirms this.

 

Jun 9, 2012 -- 2:30PM, WiNGSPANTT wrote:

Jun 9, 2012 -- 2:21PM, hubin_at wrote:

DotP 2012 demo version also had no mulligan option. But when you purchase the full-game unlock, mulligan also got "unlocked".

Did not know this. Hopefully, it is true.

I didn't want to outright alarm people but I hope you understand I am merely reporting exactly what I am experiencing.

WingspanTT, You do awesome work, I'm a big fan. I have a question though: Does your Press version feature all 10 decks?

No, only 4.

Jun 9, 2012 -- 3:21PM, WiNGSPANTT wrote:

No, only 4.

Cool. My next question to everyone else would naturally be, "since his press version of the game doesn't have all 10 decks, does that mean the version we buy won't either?"


(edited)

By the way, just making light of the situation, not trying to be an asshat.

Only your copy is going to have 4 decks Splattercat.

Jun 9, 2012 -- 3:22PM, Splattercat wrote:

Jun 9, 2012 -- 3:21PM, WiNGSPANTT wrote:

No, only 4.

Cool. My next question to everyone else would naturally be, "since his press version of the game doesn't have all 10 decks, does that mean the version we buy won't either?"


(edited)

By the way, just making light of the situation, not trying to be an asshat.

I know youre here for good asshat, its all good :P

   

DO NOT SEEK TO RESTRICT DISSENT (unless your dissent is cramping his style). (mild chuckle)

I'm hoping this is just something they did with the press preview release.
We will have to wait and see, unless wizards decides to tell us what's the case.

Good to know this isn't the first time they've done this for a demo version of the game.  I know this game's shuffler is broken and probably always will be (to the extent that I often wonder if it could really do with two free mulligans), but this would be a pretty terrible solution for all the reasons already mentioned in here.

Ironically, I actually feel like rigging your hand to always have 2-5 lands doesn't really balance out not being able to mulligan, anyway.  I've thrown back my fair share of two-land hands with nothing that costs less than 4 or 5, or five-land hands with nothing useful to play.

I don't see anyway this is true for the full game, mulligans are an integral part of Magic and there's no way they'd take them out. I'll eat my hat if they do.

You know, this could cut both ways. If "it's the demo" is the reason for no mulligans, couldn't "it's the demo" be the exact same reason for no double decking in 2HG?

... now I'm depressed. Way to go, cynicism.

All right guys, I made a video of what I saw. Here it is:

Definitely not normal draws, its gotta be a demo-only thing I hope.

Although I obviously cannot say for certain, I think it's fairly clear that in the press version of the game the player uses the drawing algorithm that the AI always uses in the retail versions of the games.

There have been many topics over the years complaining about how the AI never has to mulligan and never seems to get mana screwed (not right out of the gate anyway, they can do after a few turns which supports this theory even more). I can say (almost) without a shadow of a doubt that this will not be in the final game, why would they start doing such a bizarre thing now when they never have before?

Oh and as for no double decking in 2hg, Halle-freaking-lullja!

i remember 2012 not having mulligan in the demo. And i think the first game didnt either. So its a safe bet there will be mulligans in 2013

Thanks for the video, WingspanTT! (and for the other videos of course)

It really seems they have some mechanisms for a balanced starting hand. Personally I really would welcome such a thing since I see land-screw as a major annoyance in the Magic gameplay.

I hope there are mulligans in the full game. 2013 is looking really good -  we got manual mana tapping, no double decking in 2HG, tons of unlocks, interesting decks, Planechase and more but the lack of mulligans would ruin everything...

    I've removed content from this thread because baiting/trolling is a violation of the Code of Conduct.  You can review the Code of Conduct here www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_...

Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.

Did anybody else read the last paragraph of the 2HG loading screen? 

It reads: "Damage, losing life, and gaining life happens to each player individually. The result is applied to the team's shared life total."

In the Celestial Light thread, I'm fairly certain someone did a rules look-up and they said that the statement above was false. Which was the cause for a lot of the hullabaloo about Serra Ascendant.

So, that means each players life total at the start is essentially 15 right? If that's the case, I don't see Serra Ascendant being a huge deal in 2HG at all really. Even with double decking it wouldn't have been a huge issue. Problematic, sure. But not game breaking. 

I'd be sad to hear that what is being speculated about in this thread is true. With the algorithms, and the game being programmed to intentionally not give a player Serra Ascendant turn 1. Unless the game is programmed to also recognize the player's life total as equal to the team's life total then it would make some sense. But if the game follows the statement in the loading screen, it should be able to recognize each player's life total as parts of the whole.

Of course, I could be way wrong. If that's the case, please be gentle in shredding my logic and knowledge of Magic rules.

Jun 10, 2012 -- 6:39AM, SaylaB wrote:

Did anybody else read the last paragraph of the 2HG loading screen? 

It reads: "Damage, losing life, and gaining life happens to each player individually. The result is applied to the team's shared life total."

In the Celestial Light thread, I'm fairly certain someone did a rules look-up and they said that the statement above was false. Which was the cause for a lot of the hullabaloo about Serra Ascendant.

So, that means each players life total at the start is essentially 15 right? If that's the case, I don't see Serra Ascendant being a huge deal in 2HG at all really. Even with double decking it wouldn't have been a huge issue. Problematic, sure. But not game breaking. 

I'd be sad to hear that what is being speculated about in this thread is true. With the algorithms, and the game being programmed to intentionally not give a player Serra Ascendant turn 1. Unless the game is programmed to also recognize the player's life total as equal to the team's life total then it would make some sense. But if the game follows the statement in the loading screen, it should be able to recognize each player's life total as parts of the whole.

Of course, I could be way wrong. If that's the case, please be gentle in shredding my logic and knowledge of Magic rules.

No, you still have a shared life total. It's just that they don't want things like "whenever you take damage, draw a card" to apply to both players. Essentially it would prevent both players from benefitting from certain triggers.

Jun 10, 2012 -- 1:58AM, You_Spoony_Bard wrote:

Although I obviously cannot say for certain, I think it's fairly clear that in the press version of the game the player uses the drawing algorithm that the AI always uses in the retail versions of the games.

Well, no.  The AI has never had a land-fixed starting hand, since I've seen it have to mull down to 4 before even on planeswalker.  But the shuffler is clearly rigged to be more likely to give them useful draws on planeswalker.

Jun 10, 2012 -- 9:44AM, JP_Russell wrote:

Jun 10, 2012 -- 1:58AM, You_Spoony_Bard wrote:

Although I obviously cannot say for certain, I think it's fairly clear that in the press version of the game the player uses the drawing algorithm that the AI always uses in the retail versions of the games.

Well, no.  The AI has never had a land-fixed starting hand, since I've seen it have to mull down to 4 before even on planeswalker.  But the shuffler is clearly rigged to be more likely to give them useful draws on planeswalker.

Yeah ive seen that as well, they go down to 4 cards but still manage to play the perfect counter to your move. I like it though, some of the things the computer pulls off, teaches you a lot. You can usually tell who the people are online who only played the game to archmage difficulty lol

This answers the the Mulligan question: www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_det...

Jun 10, 2012 -- 11:15AM, xlguru wrote:

This answers the the Mulligan question: www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_det...

Good eye, thanks for posting. The wording makes it sound like they removed the free mulligan then.

Jun 10, 2012 -- 11:53AM, Averagegamer90 wrote:

Jun 10, 2012 -- 11:15AM, xlguru wrote:

This answers the the Mulligan question: www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_det...

Good eye, thanks for posting. The wording makes it sound like they removed the free mulligan then.

It doesn't say anything, as been mentioned multiple times before, it's a video of demo build for the press, it's different in many aspect, may be as well different from full game by not having mulligan.

Are you saying they put in a screen explaining how Mulligans work but that doesn't mean the game has mulligans?

Jun 10, 2012 -- 11:53AM, Averagegamer90 wrote:

Jun 10, 2012 -- 11:15AM, xlguru wrote:

This answers the the Mulligan question: www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_det...

Good eye, thanks for posting. The wording makes it sound like they removed the free mulligan then.

Possibly, but they're not very specific about it.  That is, they don't necessarily sound like they're walking through how the mulligan will work in the game so much as giving a generic definition of what a mulligan is and how it works, without mentioning that you get a free one here.  Time will tell.

Personally, I really hope they don't get rid of the free mulligan since I have huge doubts they'll ever be able to make the shuffler simulate a proper shuffle of cards in real life.

I knida wish the free mulligan rule wasn't in Duels, as my last event I went to, a few DoTP players turned up for the Avacyn Restored pre release, my first game I sit against one, he says  "I  will take my free mulligan", I said "err no dude you go down to six, your not playing Duels of the Planeswalkers now" funny thing is the guy actually said "wow, how long you been playing magic for, everyone gets a free mulligan, its in the video game" I  said "ok, just to be on the safe side and make sure your correct I will call over a judge" funny thing is this guy started arguing with the judge I laughed so hard..

I really don't mind if the game has no mulligan, if the system provides enough variation and if it prevents mana flood or mana shortage. Complete ramdomness is very good in theory, but in practice sometimes it just sucks.

Jun 9, 2012 -- 4:48PM, MisterDubs wrote:

I don't see anyway this is true for the full game, mulligans are an integral part of Magic and there's no way they'd take them out. I'll eat my hat if they do.

totally agree, I think its pretty obvious the "demo" version is designed to be a fast, dummed down version of the game, meant to give new players a bite-size intro to magic.

Magic is a very complicated game. giving newbies "stacked" opening hands and no mulligans is just a way to simplify it a bit for them. WotC knows that veteran players are not likely to play the demo, we're either going to buy game outright or not at all.

this is why the mulligan option is absent from every DotP demo to date. personally, I think we're all so overwhelmed with the good news about the game that we're all holding are breath waiting for the bottom to drop out. hence the fears expressed in this thread.

dont worry folks, there will always be flaws that we can nit-pick, However I doubt lack of mulligans will be one of them.

It is all but confirmed that there are Mulligans. In wingspanTT's video one of the Help screen's discusses Mulligans. I don't see how they would explain what it is and then not include it. I have posted the link in a previous post.

I would even bump it up from "all but confirmed" to "completely confirmed" you're link is confirmation enough for me.

Yeah in retrospect it's pretty hilarious that the next video I make proves it wrong. Oh well, it's better to keep them in, in the long run.

Hey guys, just as a heads up the build in that video was a demo build and not the full game. I can assure that Duels 2013 will still have the option for a free mulligan. Hope this clears up some confusion!

_{I thought so, thanks for confirmation.}

Jun 12, 2012 -- 4:49PM, WotC_Microbless wrote:

Hey guys, just as a heads up the build in that video was a demo build and not the full game. I can assure that Duels 2013 will still have the option for a free mulligan. Hope this clears up some confusion!

Cool.  Thank you for taking the time to let us know.

My magic playing friends have played the game for over 15 years with a free mulligan, so I don't know if the rules have been changed in paper magic recently, or if there's two different camps of thought.

Jun 12, 2012 -- 11:31PM, point05 wrote:

My magic playing friends have played the game for over 15 years with a free mulligan, so I don't know if the rules have been changed in paper magic recently, or if there's two different camps of thought.

Hmm, seems like a different rule thought for a different group. That's around the years I've started and I was taught without having a free mulligan (except if you had no or all lands maybe?). I just know I didn't see this kind of free mulligan until Duels, and boy is it amazing. Let's me aggressively mulligan like a champ. Ha, which is probably slowly making me a worse player now that I think about it.

Jun 12, 2012 -- 4:49PM, WotC_Microbless wrote:

Hey guys, just as a heads up the build in that video was a demo build and not the full game. I can assure that Duels 2013 will still have the option for a free mulligan. Hope this clears up some confusion!

They should make Duels represent the paper/online versions of Magic and have no free mulligan.

Jun 13, 2012 -- 6:40AM, Mise_Mage wrote:

Jun 12, 2012 -- 4:49PM, WotC_Microbless wrote:

Hey guys, just as a heads up the build in that video was a demo build and not the full game. I can assure that Duels 2013 will still have the option for a free mulligan. Hope this clears up some confusion!

They should make Duels represent the paper/online versions of Magic and have no free mulligan.

They can't because the shuffling algorithm is bad (and most likely always will be).  No free mulligan would genuinely hurt the quality of the play experience of this game.

Jun 13, 2012 -- 9:56AM, JP_Russell wrote:

Jun 13, 2012 -- 6:40AM, Mise_Mage wrote:

They should make Duels represent the paper/online versions of Magic and have no free mulligan.

They can't because the shuffling algorithm is bad (and most likely always will be).  No free mulligan would genuinely hurt the quality of the play experience of this game.

^This.  DotP does not sort the cards in any meaningful way.  This means that you get a truly random draw instead of one that has lands shuffled evenly with the other cards.  Land flooding/screwing is far too common in DotP to ever get rid of the free mulligan, at least while using the current algorithm.

For what it's worth, Planechase's paper rules give a free Mulligan.

So there's that.

Jun 13, 2012 -- 10:26AM, Splattercat wrote:

For what it's worth, Planechase's paper rules give a free Mulligan.

So there's that.

I believe all multiplayer formats, including 2HG are supposed to support the free mulligan rule.

Jun 13, 2012 -- 10:36AM, Brodo wrote:

Jun 13, 2012 -- 10:26AM, Splattercat wrote:

For what it's worth, Planechase's paper rules give a free Mulligan.

So there's that.

I believe all multiplayer formats, including 2HG are supposed to support the free mulligan rule.

That as well. I keep forgetting that Planechase was designed for Multiplayer.

Whoever came up with the idea of a free mulligan for DOTP is a pretty smart guy. Imagine how many extra quits there would be if people didnt get an instant-win opening hand. Ive seen people quit after going to 6 cards.

I certainly quit when I have to go down to 5 and still have an unplayable hand. 3 cards disadvantage is too much for my taste.

Honestly, I always thought it would be good if the player could choose, say, up to three mana any color and then the rest of his or her hand would be random. Something like this would just make the game more enjoyable imo.

In tournaments it is always go down to 6. In casual play it is usually for fun so players often allow free mulligan. I mean if I am playing casually what fun is there stomping my opponent in 4 turns because they don't have mana or whatever.