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12 months ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 10:02PM #1
ChidyDog
Date Joined: Jun 30, 2010
Posts: 259
I just want to verify how these two really interact in certain corner cases I've experienced recently, such as:

1) Player casts multiple creatures in same turn (let's say 3 creatures for this example), none of them have haste innately and no other boardwide haste effect is present either), all in same turn. Player has Lightning Greaves already out and equips it to each creature one at a time. Now player tries to attack with all these creatures saying they all have haste now due to Lightning Greaves being equipped to them.

My understanding is that all 3 creatures initially have summoning sickness, then have haste when and only while it is equipped with Greaves, thus when player moves Greaves to another creature, said creature loses haste and still suffers from summoning sickness.

2)Player A has Maelstrom Wanderer out. On Player B's turn, he plays Eternal Witness and then his own Maelstrom Wanderer , which kills both due to legend rule immediately. Player B then tries to attack with Eternal Witness saying it still has haste from Maelstrom Wanderer even though by the combat step it is clearly in the graveyard.

I tried to tell Player B the haste effect only works when Maelstrom Wanderer was on battlefield just like any other static ability, thus Eternal Witness still suffers Summoning Sickness. He responded saying it doesn't matter since Maelstrom Wanderer isn't worded to say "creatures have haste for as long as he controls Maelstrom Wanderer " or "until end of turn," etc. My understanding is such static abilities like Maelstrom Wanderer , Urabrask the Hidden , Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite , etc are by default only in affect when they are on battlefield. Otherwise, why would WotC have to word Anger and the like as they do. Player B's agruement to me seems like Anger = Maelstrom Wanderer , Urabrask the Hidden as far as the Haste abilities are concerned.

3)Player A has Concordant Crossroads out. If he casts a creature then, before his combat step, someone destroys Concordant Crossroads , would said creature still have Summoning Sickness? same question can be applied appropriately to any other player casting a non-haste creature on their respective turn later on if this enchantment still exists at the time (no flash shenanigans)
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12 months ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 10:08PM #2
iamajellydonut
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All three questions have the same answer.

Haste does not remove summoning sickness. It only allows the creature to ignore the summoning sickness.

1) Only one of the three creatures (the one equipped by Lightning Greaves) will be able to attack.

2) Eternal Witness will not be able to attack.

3) The creature would not be able to attack. 
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Oct 11, 2012 -- 9:16AM, Enigma256 wrote:

Oct 11, 2012 -- 8:50AM, Chaikov wrote:

What's wrong with my formating?

you make paragraphs shorter than the page width


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12 months ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 10:09PM #3
iamajellydonut
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Note: If the creatures are already attacking when the haste source is removed, they will continue to be attacking.
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞ Show


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.

Oct 11, 2012 -- 9:16AM, Enigma256 wrote:

Oct 11, 2012 -- 8:50AM, Chaikov wrote:

What's wrong with my formating?

you make paragraphs shorter than the page width


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12 months ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 10:10PM #4
Segoth
Date Joined: Dec 16, 2010
Posts: 1,053
1) Only the creature equipped with greaves would have haste.  The others had haste while it was equipped but will no longer have it when it isn't.  If they have 'summoning sickness' they will be unable to attack.

2 & 3) Each of those cards you listed have static abilities that only function while on the battlefield.  While those cards are on the battlefield the creatures have haste, when they leave the battlefield they will no longer have haste.  It's the same thing like honor of the pure , white creatures will only receive +1/+1 while it's on the battlefield, but will no longer have it if honor the pure leaves the battlefield.

The reason anger is worded the way it is, is because it has an ability the only functions while it's in the graveyard so it needs to specifically point out that the ability only works as long as its in the graveyard.   
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12 months ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 10:10PM #5
Shard_Fenix
Date Joined: Jan 24, 2011
Posts: 1,830

Jun 3, 2012 -- 10:02PM, ChidyDog wrote:

1) Player casts multiple creatures in same turn (let's say 3 creatures for this example), none of them have haste innately and no other boardwide haste effect is present either), all in same turn. Player has Lightning Greaves already out and equips it to each creature one at a time. Now player tries to attack with all these creatures saying they all have haste now due to Lightning Greaves being equipped to them.

My understanding is that all 3 creatures initially have summoning sickness, then have haste when and only while it is equipped with Greaves, thus when player moves Greaves to another creature, said creature loses haste and still suffers from summoning sickness.


Yes. A creature only has haste while it has haste. Lightning Greaves only applies haste while it's attached to a creature.

2)Player A has Maelstrom Wanderer out. On Player B's turn, he plays Eternal Witness and then his own Maelstrom Wanderer , which kills both due to legend rule immediately. Player B then tries to attack with Eternal Witness saying it still has haste from Maelstrom Wanderer even though by the combat step it is clearly in the graveyard.



Same thing. Maelstrom Wanderer only applies haste while it's on the battlefield. Once it leaves, creatures no longer have haste.

3)Player A has Concordant Crossroads out. If he casts a creature then, before his combat step, someone destroys Concordant Crossroads , would said creature still have Summoning Sickness? same question can be applied appropriately to any other player casting a non-haste creature on their respective turn later on if this enchantment still exists at the time (no flash shenanigans)



Same thing. Crossroads' ability only applies while it's on the battlefield. Once it's gone, you no longer get its benefit.

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12 months ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 11:14PM #6
GainsBanding
Date Joined: Sep 6, 2009
Posts: 865
This was just discussed on here last week.  For more info and maybe some situations you hadn't thought of:

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
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12 months ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 1:13AM #7
Zoidberg
Date Joined: Aug 16, 2005
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You are right on all accounts (yes to q3).
Rules question? Have you read the Basic rulebook already? No? Why not take some time to do that?

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12 months ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 7:02AM #8
DocDoom
Date Joined: Aug 15, 2006
Posts: 2,021
508.1a. The active player chooses which creatures that he or she controls, if any, will attack. The chosen creatures must be untapped, and each one must either have haste or have been controlled by the active player continuously since the turn began.

702.10. Haste

702.10a. Haste is a static ability.

702.10b. If a creature has haste, it can attack even if it hasn't been controlled by its controller continuously since his or her most recent turn began. (See rule 302.6.)

702.10c. If a creature has haste, its controller can activate its activated abilities whose cost includes the tap symbol or the untap symbol even if that creature hasn't been controlled by that player continuously since his or her most recent turn began. (See rule 302.6.)

and

604. Handling Static Abilities

604.1. Static abilities do something all the time rather than being activated or triggered. They are written as statements, and they're simply true.

604.2. Static abilities create continuous effects, some of which are prevention effects or replacement effects. These effects are active as long as the permanent with the ability remains on the battlefield and has the ability, or as long as the object with the ability remains in the appropriate zone, as described in rule 112.6.
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12 months ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 9:16PM #9
ikegami
Date Joined: Nov 16, 2007
Posts: 2,231
Haste doesn't "cure" summoning sickness; it just allows the creature to ignore it. When a creature loses haste (for the reasons previously explained), it becomes subject to the summoning sickness affecting it.
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12 months ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 9:23PM #10
jeff-heikkinen
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Jun 4, 2012 -- 9:16PM, ikegami wrote:

Haste doesn't "cure" summoning sickness; it just allows the creature to ignore it. When a creature loses haste (for the reasons previously explained), it becomes subject to the summoning sickness affecting it.



And this is true because technically, summoning sickness isn't something creatures "have" in the first place; it isn't a thing they can "lose". The relevant rule simply says that a creature (that doesn't have Haste) can't attack or use or abilities unless it's been under the same player's control continuously since the beginning of his or her most recent (possibly current) turn. There's nothing there about imposing a status like being tapped, or a videogame-style "condition". Haste lets creatures ignore this rule, but it's a mistake to think it "cures" or "removes" summoning sickness precisely because there's nothing to "cure" or "remove".

Jeff Heikkinen
DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
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