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13 months ago ::
May 31, 2012 - 4:59PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jun 24, 2008
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This thread is for discussion of this week's Latest Developments, which goes live Friday morning on magicthegathering.com.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 01, 2012 - 12:11AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Oct 31, 2011
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Excellent article, thanks! Last week I made a post that was perhaps a shade unfairly critical of current multiplayer design. R&D are doing a good job, by and large, of providing the tools we want. The cards I see as problems (the huge, splashy effects that dominate games with no additional work and requiring no particular building-around to operate) are generally high-profile and noticeable, and that overshadows a lot of the things we are getting. Now, that's not to say that everything else is great; we get some hits and some misses. Innistrad's graveyard theme was always going to provide some solid cards, and provided a good number of really interesting build-around-me cards across rarities. Dark Ascension, though, was outstandingly weak, with barely anything worth mentioning. But Avacyn Restored is alright (a few quality cards, although none of the mechanics or themes really shine), so it's a good showing overall. So, what do we want? Well I can't speak for the rest of them, but a lot that I like is actually on the increase, so I'll highlight the good work: 1) Graveyard disruption tied to useful effects. While I wouldn't like to see this pushed any further than it has been with Scavenging Ooze and Cemetery Reaper , I'm glad that graveyard removal is something we don't have to be forced to remove. I don't want some super-efficient hoser that fits snugly into every deck, but I'm happy to see that graveyard-based decks are more and more likely to find their strategy facing disruption in the way a deck based around keeping permanents in play does. I don't want a strong and interesting strategy hosed, but it's nice for there to be more interaction. 2) The same, for lands. We're not seeing so much of that, and of course land destruction isn't something we want in every deck. But it'd be nice if the player with Cabal Coffers had to expect to protect them. I think the answer is the type of versatile-but-weak spells mentioned in the article. I usually think of Wrecking Ball , but they're typically of the Green 'destroy a noncreature permanent' type now. I like these because they're generally focused on one of the more usual threats, but owners of troublesome lands don't get a free reign. 3) More ways of extracting value from small spells. This is a difficult one. I like little effects like Cloudshift and Lightning Bolt , and I always think it's a shame they're not worth a deck slot. There are cards that can be used to build with them, but I wish they could work without being paired with something as obvious as Isochron Scpeter . The Restoration Angel technique of attaching it to a creature is a tolerable middle ground, but a bit predictable. I guess printing these effects with a fairly-narrow repetition clause in the vein of Thunderblade Charge is as good as solution as is really going to work, and that's fine. And we're getting a few more ways of bringing noncreatures back from the graveyard, so that's a positive step. Of course it's necessary to avoid too much of a good thing; if something is pushed too hard, the challenge goes. Which, I suppose, leads to: 4) Broader focus in set themes. Or, really, less parasitism. It's especially noticeable with tribal blocks, of course, but I personally don't much enjoy building decks within a single set. I like cards that have a lot of potential interactions, which I can combine with many different things. I'm a sucker for recursion and ETB effects, because there's a whole bunch of things one can do with something like Deadeye Navigator . For me, versatility is the game, and often a set's 'on-theme' cards will be so tightly tied to their purpose that they can't really do anything outside their prescribed deck. I especially liked the GUB self-milling draft deck from Innistrad. I don't doubt it was as carefully-designed as any other draft archetype, but I love the nonobviousness and complexity and hate to see sets full of 'play this with X'. Even when X is something with a lot of history like Humans, it feels like low-hanging fruit. Innistrad was a good set, combining the narrow tribal themes which are apparently popular with non-me people with a more broadly applicable graveyard theme. There was a good deal of stuff on both sides of the fence, and that's what I'd like to see continuing.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 01, 2012 - 12:25AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jan 16, 2011
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What id like to see Is more coverage of the ultimate casual multiplayer format - Duels of the Planeswalkers!
Sure it's not tournament level and is basically lots of big agro decks, but it's a nice relaxing place to play and is practically its own limited format. Most people at FNM own the game so maybe one article per update on it would be cool.
I tend to play the GU innistrad self mill deck as my main multiplayer deck. Currently with black and white splashes, or as GRB for artefacts theme instead. Works surprisingly well.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 01, 2012 - 2:24AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Oct 16, 2007
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The main thing I tend to feel is missing from multiplayer development is recognition of cards which harm these sorts of games. You mention the possibility of types of card which you should do less often, but some cards like Beacon of Immortality , Sway of the Stars , Shared Fate , Mist of Stagnation , Eye of the Storm , Iona, Shield of Emeria , Karn Liberated , Primal Surge etc. do harm even if printed only once, because that's the number of printings it takes for someone to decide it's OK to play them and then accidentally wreck a game. In competitive formats the natural tendency is to balance a card by adding mana if its effect is too good. But in casual multiplayer games, "too good" isn't really an issue. The problem is "too boring", which is something no amount of extra mana can fix. Note also that house rules banning particular cards are no use. Fine for your cozy little playing group with half a dozen good friends, but for those of us who play on MtGO it's not a solution.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 01, 2012 - 2:55AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2004
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The main thing I tend to feel is missing from multiplayer development is recognition of cards which harm these sorts of games. You mention the possibility of types of card which you should do less often, but some cards like Beacon of Immortality , Sway of the Stars , Shared Fate , Mist of Stagnation , Eye of the Storm , Iona, Shield of Emeria , Karn Liberated , Primal Surge etc. do harm even if printed only once, because that's the number of printings it takes for someone to decide it's OK to play them and then accidentally wreck a game.
Huh. Interesting list. I disagree with several of them. Shared Fate and Eye of the Storm turn a game on its head, sure, but I at least still find the game fun when that happens. There's a place for those effects; I really wouldn't say they "wreck" the game. I enjoyed playing multiplayer against my friend's Shared Fate deck. Knowledge Pool similarly. (Unless paired with Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir , and there the problem lies fair and square with Teferi. I still can't believe Wizards reprinted him in FTV: Legends. Ugh. There's a card that wrecks games, although not accidentally so much as very deliberately.)
Primal Surge also doesn't look like a "wreck the game" card. It will often be "I win now", sure, but you get that for 10 mana; you get it for 8, in fact, on Insurrection .
Iona and Mist of Stagnation I'll give you are nasty cards that stop the game from happening. There are players who like those kind of effects, albeit rather small amounts of them... so it could be that Wizards think it's worth printing something every few years for that crowd. (You say "harm even if printed only once", but there is a natural trend to play with the more recent cards; Mist of Stagnation isn't even Modern-legal.)
Note also that house rules banning particular cards are no use. Fine for your cozy little playing group with half a dozen good friends, but for those of us who play on MtGO it's not a solution.
I'll admit that the anonymity of the MTGO casual rooms does have definite problems that aren't faced by f2f playgroups. I don't have a good solution for that.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 01, 2012 - 3:06AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Oct 16, 2007
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Shared Fate and Eye of the Storm turn a game on its head, sure, but there's a place for those effects; they don't "wreck" it. I enjoyed playing multiplayed against my friend's Shared Fate deck.
Well... good!
My experience of Shared Fate has been - like many of the other cards in the list - that it can cause incredibly long games in which one or more players are largely locked out from doing anything relevant.
Primal Surge also doesn't look like a "wreck the game" card. It will often be "I win now", sure, but you get that for 10 mana; you get it for 8, in fact, on Insurrection .
That's exactly the distinction I'm trying to make: Insurrection can insta-kill one player, but that's fine because it leaves you down a card in general. Primal Surge insta-kills the entire table. All the plays made before it resolves become completely irrelevant. Obviously different players will feel differently, but for me that's a wrecked game.
(You say "harm even if printed only once", but there is a natural trend to play with the more recent cards; Mist of Stagnation isn't even Modern-legal.)
Yes, to be fair I agree that Mist is no longer relevant. My list was off the top of my head and that was one of the cards which first caused me to notice this problem many years ago.
Few groups play casual multiplayer in an environment as small as Standard, though. As such a lot of harm can be caused even by as little as one card every two years.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 01, 2012 - 5:33AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Feb 22, 2005
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I have to say, my favorite multiplayer card ever is Endless Whispers because of the sheer ridiculousness that follows. A close second would be Avarice Totem for similar reasons. Plus they're both incredibly political. And the chaos that follows is so delightfully fun.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 01, 2012 - 6:02AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Oct 10, 2007
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Great to see a multiplayer-centric article! What would I like to see in my beloved format? As stated in the article, multiplayer games have a natural tendency to sink back into "sit-around-and-wait-for-someone-to-blink" territory. So seeing multiplayer-centred cards that work against this would be fantastic, especially cards that reward people for swinging. To this end, Druids' Repository is a card that intrigues me - it rewards swinging, and ramps your mana to boot. Printing more cards like this would greatly advantage the "go-hard-or-go-home" style of multiplayer game that I'd love to see played more routinely (and I suspect so would most of the other guys in my playgroup).
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13 months ago ::
Jun 01, 2012 - 6:08AM
#9
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I think you look too much at cards from the perspective of having it in play on your side of the table as opposed to playing against it. There aren't a lot of ways to answer Avacyn for example. Sure it is cool if all my stuff is indestructable. It is just way more uncool in my opinion if all my opponent's stuff is indestructable. If I want to interact with that opponent, then I need counterspells, hallowed burial, and exile cards or perhaps even narrower cards.
Similarly, cards like primeval titan and griselbrand make targetted removal worse because once they hit play, they've already done their damage. I have to counterspell them-or the bribery/sneak attack/whatever else the kids are using to get them into play. You talked about how powerful counterspells are getting regarding cavern of souls. That has more to do with how powerful creatures are getting. In Alpha, terror and counterspell had the same result when targetting a creature. That is not the case w/ ETB, abilities that can be immediately activated, or have abilities like Avacyn's.
Lastly, you talked about day of judgement being so much better than doom blade, which makes instant speed removal less common that sorceries in multiplayer. Something that personally bugs me because of this is cards like jin-gitaxis and conscecrated sphinx where the damage they do is based on turns occurring. So basically, if I sit to the right of a guy that plays Jin-gitaxis/sphinx, and my other opponents didn't have an answer but I have a sorcery speed one, the damage these cards do is much greater than if I simply had sat in a different chair.
I think you have to be careful that cards don't limit ways to interact such that it frequently comes back to counterspells with exile backup often being the options available. I want to interact w/ my opponents. I do not want to have to play the same, specific cards all the time to do it.
Finally, now that all the planes are spoiled, I'd like to say that they really missed the mark for me. I like planes that make the cards in my deck the star of the show. Several new planes seem more like sorceries than I like, but the phenomena do function like random, uncounterable sorceries. I would never agree to play a game where warp world could randomly happen. That just land screws someone for no good reason. It is easier to just say 'no' to planechase than to make sure morphic tide isn't a possibility.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 01, 2012 - 6:16AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2010
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I've been extremeley interested all of a sudden in TP-Dweller , and if he might be fair, considering I can make a deal to give it to anyone who promises not to attack or block my creatures with it. You might think nobody would take this offer up because it doesn't hurt me, but why wouldn't they? They get more powerful on the table against everyone, because they get more resources with dealing with my opponents, which may lead them to having more resources to deal with me. But in exchange I now have an opponent's resource also helping me. It's a trade not unlike the Vow cycle. I love these kinds of ideas in multiplayer.
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