i was talking with a friend, and he brought up an interesting interaction which he once saw on rules forum, but he doesn't remember the answer and i can't find it. so i'm asking it here again.
suppose i have a phytohydra enchanted with my own pariah , and then my opponent flame wave s me. the question is will the phytohydra get four +1/+1 counters, or eight?
here's my analysis: - flame wave deals four damage to me and four damage to my phytohydra simultaneously - but there are two replacement effects waiting around; one replacement effect from pariah that replaces the four damage dealt to me with "four damage is dealt to phytohydra", and one replacement effect from phytohydra that replaces the four damage being dealt to it (by flame wave) with "put four +1/+1 counters on phytohydra" - but now the question is, does phytohydra's replacement effect replace (/in turn/) the "four damage is dealt to phytohydra" that came from pariah's replacement effect on flame wave's dealing four damage to me?
on one hand it seems weird that there can be multiple "steps" of replacement effects that can apply, that happen one after the other, to a single event, but i can accept this does happen even if it seems weird to my human mind
but more concerningly, i think there was some rule that says "a replacemenet effect only works once on an event. if a replacement effect replaced something once on the same event before, it doesn't work on it again".
additional question:
i'm still not sure exactly what counts as "one event". is flame wave's dealing four damage to me and four damage to my phytohydra simultaneously all part of "one event", or is that two separate events that happen simultaneously?
It would gain 8 +1/+1 counters. phytohydra and pariah /pariah shield was probably one of the most common, and annoying to beat, combos back in the ravnica block. The way the effects work is, I think, as follows: 1) Flame wave assigns 4 damage to you, and 4 damage to phytohydra. 2) Phytohydra's replacement effect essentially 'rewords' flame wave to "put 4 +1/+1 counters on phytohydra" while pariah then takes effect and redirects the damage to phytohydra. 3)Phytohydra's replacement takes effect yet again and puts 4 more +1/+1 counters on it. Both you and it are harm-free, while any other weenies you had in place are charbroiled enough to use as plant food.
You'll see this sort of situation come up with empyrial archangel a lot, however, I may be incorrect in the timing of it. For all I know, pariah's redirection would take effect first, sending all 8 damage to the creature at once. regarding the replacement rule you've quoted, not sure if it is a rule or not, but even so, I believe it would have no bearing on this particular combo. If you read flame wave, you'll see that it says "...4 to target player.... AND ....4 each creature..." which I believe would mean that its all one event. If it had said "then" instead, it would likely be two different events. Although that doesnt really matter as it's dealing 4 damage to you first, which bumps up the phytohydra enough to survive the creature side of the damage anyways.
There would be 8 additional counters on the Phytohydra. The Flame Wave doesn't care where the damage is redirected to, it intially directs you to be dealt deal 4 damage. You follow that instruction by putting 4 +1/+1 counters on the Phytohydra. Then the next instruction on the card has Flame Wave deal 4 damage to each creature you control. That instruction is followed by again putting 4 counters on the Phytohydra.
i was talking with a friend, and he brought up an interesting interaction which he once saw on rules forum, but he doesn't remember the answer and i can't find it. so i'm asking it here again.
suppose i have a phytohydra enchanted with my own pariah , and then my opponent flame wave s me. the question is will the phytohydra get four +1/+1 counters, or eight?
here's my analysis: - flame wave deals four damage to me and four damage to my phytohydra simultaneously - but there are two replacement effects waiting around; one replacement effect from pariah that replaces the four damage dealt to me with "four damage is dealt to phytohydra", and one replacement effect from phytohydra that replaces the four damage being dealt to it (by flame wave) with "put four +1/+1 counters on phytohydra" - but now the question is, does phytohydra's replacement effect replace (/in turn/) the "four damage is dealt to phytohydra" that came from pariah's replacement effect on flame wave's dealing four damage to me?
on one hand it seems weird that there can be multiple "steps" of replacement effects that can apply, that happen one after the other, to a single event, but i can accept this does happen even if it seems weird to my human mind
Think of them as multiple "drafts" (as of a script). For example, if the spell were Lava Axe rather than Flame Wave, you'd have:
First draft: Lava Axe deals 5 damage to target player.
Second draft: Lava Axe deals 5 damage to Phytohydra.
Third (and final) draft: Put 5 +1/+1 counters on Phytohydra.
616.2. A replacement or prevention effect can become applicable to an event as the result of another replacement or prevention effect that modifies the event. Example: One effect reads "If you would gain life, draw that many cards instead," and another reads "If you would draw a card, return a card from your graveyard to your hand instead." Both effects combine (regardless of the order they came into existence): Instead of gaining 1 life, the player puts a card from his or her graveyard into his or her hand.
but more concerningly, i think there was some rule that says "a replacemenet effect only works once on an event. if a replacement effect replaced something once on the same event before, it doesn't work on it again".
614.5. A replacement effect doesn't invoke itself repeatedly; it gets only one opportunity to affect an event or any modified events that may replace it. Example: A player controls two permanents, each with an ability that reads "If a creature you control would deal damage to a creature or player, it deals double that damage to that creature or player instead." A creature that normally deals 2 damage will deal 8 damage -- not just 4, and not an infinite amount.
Note that other events that might be happening at the same time are not excluded.
i'm still not sure exactly what counts as "one event". is flame wave's dealing four damage to me and four damage to my phytohydra simultaneously all part of "one event", or is that two separate events that happen simultaneously?
It depends on what is asking.
700.1. Anything that happens in a game is an event. Multiple events may take place during the resolution of a spell or ability. The text of triggered abilities and replacement effects defines the event they're looking for. One "happening" may be treated as a single event by one ability and as multiple events by another. Example: If an attacking creature is blocked by two creatures, this is one event for a triggered ability that reads "Whenever [this creature] becomes blocked" but two events for a triggered ability that reads "Whenever [this creature] becomes blocked by a creature."
No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.
@meb9000: are you implying that the two parts of flame wave ("deal four damage to me" and "deal four damage to phytohydra") are NOT done simultaneously, but instead "deal four damage to me" is done first, and only after that is done is the "deal four damage to phytohydra" is done?
@tyrsisknight:
regarding the replacement rule you've quoted, not sure if it is a rule or not, but even so, I believe it would have no bearing on this particular combo. If you read flame wave, you'll see that it says "...4 to target player.... AND ....4 each creature..." which I believe would mean that its all one event. If it had said "then" instead, it would likely be two different events. Although that doesnt really matter as it's dealing 4 damage to you first, which bumps up the phytohydra enough to survive the creature side of the damage anyways.
here you say that flame wave uses the word "AND", which means that "flame wave deals four damage to me" and "flame wave deals four damage to phytohydra" are all the same event, and [i'm guessing] this means they happen /simultaneously/. ` but then you say that "doesn't really matter as its dealing 4 damage to you first". so which is it -- simultaneous, or "four damage to me" first?
=== 614.5. A replacement effect doesn't invoke itself repeatedly; it gets only one opportunity to affect an event or any modified events that may replace it. === (from wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Replacemen...)
so in your analysis, i am doubting if the step 3 you wrote can happen:
1) Flame wave assigns 4 damage to you, and 4 damage to phytohydra. 2) Phytohydra's replacement effect essentially 'rewords' flame wave to "put 4 +1/+1 counters on phytohydra" while pariah then takes effect and redirects the damage to phytohydra. 3)Phytohydra's replacement takes effect yet again and puts 4 more +1/+1 counters on it. Both you and it are harm-free, while any other weenies you had in place are charbroiled enough to use as plant food.
you say "phytohydra's replacement takes effect yet again", but a replacement effect can only affect an event once per event. so the question is, when pariah replaces "flame wave deals for damage to me" with "flame wave deals four damage to phytohydra", does it .. somehow.. "create" a new event when it does that? ` or, instead, does the part of 614.5 i bolded apply here, as in the following analysis:
original event: "flame wave deals four damage to me and deals four damage to phytohydra"
new event after pariah's replacement effect and phytohydra's replacement effects do their work: "flame wave deals four damage to me deals four damage to phytohydra and deals four damage to phytohydra puts four +1/+1 counters on phytohydra"
phytohydra's replacement effect tries to replace "deals four damage to phytohydra" again, but rule 614.5 says that it gets only one chance to act on the original event, or act on the event after it's been modified.
@meb9000: are you implying that the two parts of flame wave ("deal four damage to me" and "deal four damage to phytohydra") are NOT done simultaneously, but instead "deal four damage to me" is done first, and only after that is done is the "deal four damage to phytohydra" is done?
@tyrsisknight:
regarding the replacement rule you've quoted, not sure if it is a rule or not, but even so, I believe it would have no bearing on this particular combo. If you read flame wave, you'll see that it says "...4 to target player.... AND ....4 each creature..." which I believe would mean that its all one event. If it had said "then" instead, it would likely be two different events. Although that doesnt really matter as it's dealing 4 damage to you first, which bumps up the phytohydra enough to survive the creature side of the damage anyways.
here you say that flame wave uses the word "AND", which means that "flame wave deals four damage to me" and "flame wave deals four damage to phytohydra" are all the same event, and [i'm guessing] this means they happen /simultaneously/. ` but then you say that "doesn't really matter as its dealing 4 damage to you first". so which is it -- simultaneous, or "four damage to me" first?
the damage is dealt simultaneously by virtue of the "and" modifying the spell's effect. if the wording used "then" instead of "and," then yes, I believe the damage would be dealt to you first.
=== 614.5. A replacement effect doesn't invoke itself repeatedly; it gets only one opportunity to affect an event or any modified events that may replace it. === (from wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Replacemen...)
so in your analysis, i am doubting if the step 3 you wrote can happen:
1) Flame wave assigns 4 damage to you, and 4 damage to phytohydra. 2) Phytohydra's replacement effect essentially 'rewords' flame wave to "put 4 +1/+1 counters on phytohydra" while pariah then takes effect and redirects the damage to phytohydra. 3)Phytohydra's replacement takes effect yet again and puts 4 more +1/+1 counters on it. Both you and it are harm-free, while any other weenies you had in place are charbroiled enough to use as plant food.
you say "phytohydra's replacement takes effect yet again", but a replacement effect can only affect an event once per event. so the question is, when pariah replaces "flame wave deals for damage to me" with "flame wave deals four damage to phytohydra", does it .. somehow.. "create" a new event when it does that? ` or, instead, does the part of 614.5 i bolded apply here, as in the following analysis:
original event: "flame wave deals four damage to me and deals four damage to phytohydra"
new event after pariah's replacement effect and phytohydra's replacement effects do their work: "flame wave deals four damage to me deals four damage to phytohydra and deals four damage to phytohydra puts four +1/+1 counters on phytohydra"
phytohydra's replacement effect tries to replace "deals four damage to phytohydra" again, but rule 614.5 says that it gets only one chance to act on the original event, or act on the event after it's been modified.
there's two 'main' events involved in the scenario you put forth: flame wave dealing 4 damage to you and flame wave dealing 4 damage to phytohydra. then the replacement and redirection effects go into action; phytohydra replaces the 4 damage it was dealt originally, pariah redirects your damage to phytohydra, and phytohydra replaces the second batch of damage. phytohydra would take and replace any damage dealt to you, regardless of however many times an individual spell hits you for damage.
Argus_Panoptes: so it seems that the key here is to realize that AS FAR AS PHYTOHYDRA'S 2nd REPLACEMENT EFFECT is concerned, flame wave's ability is considered *two separate events*. it's a little bit unclear why 700.1 makes this so.
that is, if a replacement effect will replace something in a "happening", does it see all other parts of that "happening" also as separate events?
ie, suppose a card says: == Mind Wave UR Sorcery Mind Wave deals four damage to target player, and four damage to target creature, and target player draws a card" ==
would phytohydra see this as two separate events, or three?
[this could be important if, for example, there was a card replacing the card draw into dealing damage to that player. if it was only two separate events as far as phytohydra's replacement effect is concerned ("mind wave deals four damage to phytohydra" and "mind wave deals four damage to me and i draw a card") then phytohydra's ability won't get to modify the chain of replacement effects that eventually replace my drawing a card with me being dealt one damage. [edit: whoa, and this example is complicated because there's also the question of if /pariah/ see two separate events or if it sees three?)
Argus_Panoptes: so it seems that the key here is to realize that AS FAR AS PHYTOHYDRA'S 2nd REPLACEMENT EFFECT is concerned, flame wave's ability is considered *two separate events*. it's a little bit unclear why 700.1 makes this so.
that is, if a replacement effect will replace something in a "happening", does it see all other parts of that "happening" also as separate events?
ie, suppose a card says: == Mind Wave UR Sorcery Mind Wave deals four damage to target player, and four damage to target creature, and target player draws a card" ==
would phytohydra see this as two separate events, or three?
[this could be important if, for example, there was a card replacing the card draw into dealing damage to that player. if it was only two separate events as far as phytohydra's replacement effect is concerned ("mind wave deals four damage to phytohydra" and "mind wave deals four damage to me and i draw a card") then phytohydra's ability won't get to modify the chain of replacement effects that eventually replace my drawing a card with me being dealt one damage. [edit: whoa, and this example is complicated because there's also the question of if /pariah/ see two separate events or if it sees three?)
there's 3 events in the spell: 4 damage to a player, 4 damage to a creature, and a player drawing a card. the first two events are dealt with by phytohydra and pariah the same as flame wave is: phytohydra gets 8 +1/+1 counters. the third event, drawing the card is ignored by them because neither has any bearing on card draw. if your opponent has an underworld dreams in play, IT pays attention to the card draw if your opponent makes you draw a card. if you did indeed draw a card, underworld dreams inflicts 1 damage on you, however pariah will take that damage and redirect it to phytohydra, who further replaces the damage and gains another +1/+1 counter. not exactly fitting the example you were after, but close enough.
edit for your edit: pariah would only see 1 event in the first spell/scenario, and 2 events in the scenario I expanded.
i'm not 100% sure i understand, but i'll settle for the 70% understanding i have.
it sounds like events are treated separately by default, unless an ability needs to "group" them together into one event, as in the example of 700.1
Example: If an attacking creature is blocked by two creatures, this is one event for a triggered ability that reads "Whenever [this creature] becomes blocked" but two events for a triggered ability that reads "Whenever [this creature] becomes blocked by a creature."
i still feel like i want to ask about complications that might arise from the events in the same "happening" being grouped differently by different abilities, but i'm too sleepy right now! thanks for your responses, though.
