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13 months ago ::
May 24, 2012 - 11:27PM
#31
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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[O]fficially, the Wake Thrasher will not trigger for the Paradise. During the untap step, the tapped Paradise moves from "being tapped" to "in it's owner's hand". That's all a single event. Since it goes from being tapped to in your hand, the Thrasher will not trigger for the Paradise.
If "Becoming untapped" didn't happen, that means it would have happened after the change of orientation and the move to the hand, which means it wasn't simultaneous. But you said it was simulatenous. ...?!?
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13 months ago ::
May 24, 2012 - 11:28PM
#32
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i am totally getting that excited feeling that happens when i'm really learning stuff!! :D :D :D
Glad to hear it. 
zammm, you're responses are making all these contradicting viewpoints suddenly harmonize! i'll wait until you finish responding, and then i'll respond.
I seem to be done now, so go ahead. 
Pre-post edit: Orrrr not. Making another post... 
but man, the comprehensive rules passage you quoted, although it clears SO much up, .. is really not at all the way i thought the game worked, lol, and seems far more complicated than the "human" way i thought the game worked! there must be a reason for this, but maybe that's best left to the meta-rules forum for me to ask (if i do gather the courage to ask!)
That's actually a pretty common reaction, but you're right--there is a reason for it.
Magic is played in highly competitive tournaments; it wants any rules question to have an absolutely, unquestionably, 100% correct answer--an answer that will be the same in all games everywhere, no matter where you're playing or who's enforcing the rules. It doesn't want wiggle room and ambiguous wording that might lead to arguments or disagreements or people playing by different rules in different tournaments. So because of that, the rules strive to be as computer-program-like as possible, to cover absolutely everything. But when the rules are absolute, you're always going to have situations where what happens doesn't quite match up with what you'd expect--absolute rules by definition can't contradict themselves, but people's expectations do that all the time.
And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
--Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary
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13 months ago ::
May 24, 2012 - 11:31PM
#33
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[edit: okay, so we got an [O]fficial answer as i was typing this up! so we know what the right answer is.
but i'm the type of person who likes to learn /why/ (and why the wrong answers are wrong!). anyone would like to help me learn this stuff?]
I will.
(such as the passage s/he posted earlier)
He, but thanks for being gender-inclusive.
And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
--Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary
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13 months ago ::
May 24, 2012 - 11:32PM
#34
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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ikegami, are you saying that the event "Undiscovered Paradise untaps and return Undiscovered Paradise to its owner's hand"
I never said there was two events. I said "return Undiscovered Paradise to its owner's hand" is *part of* "Undiscovered Paradise untaps" (and the judge agreed), which means Undiscovered Paradise became untapped (to which the judge disagrees).
Basically, the judge is saying "becomes untapped" actually means "has become untapped". In English, those means different things. In Magic, apparently not.
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13 months ago ::
May 24, 2012 - 11:32PM
#35
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2011
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oh, but one question that probably can be cleared up very quickly: if the list of "looks back in time" triggered abilities listed in 603.6d also included "triggered abilities that involve a permanent untapping", then the Wake Thrasher WOULD get the bonus? and if the answer is yes, is it because the game would see the following two game states:
- GAME STATE 1: Undiscovered Paradise is tapped on the battlefield
GAME STATE 2: Undiscovered Paradise is no longer on the battlefield.
but also the game "saw" the event happen : "EVENT: Undiscovered Paradise untaps and returns to hand (in one single event)",
and so the "lookback trigger" would see Wake Thrasher's ability in GAME STATE 1, and "see" the event happen (only because it's a "look-back" triggered ability that is checking) , and therefore would trigger?
if my above analysis is correct, then the game /doesn't/ deduce triggers by ONLY looking at game states, but that "lookback" triggers DO see the events that happened in between game states? and if the answer is no, is it because
- all events that trigger triggered abilities aren't seen directly, but ONLY deduced by comparing game states that happened one after the other?
i know i may be confusing things a bit here, but it's only 'cause i want to learn these interesting rules. (i hope i'm not being too annoying)
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13 months ago ::
May 24, 2012 - 11:37PM
#36
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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it replaces the untapping and puts the land in your hand instead
that's why waketrasher doesn't get the bonus.
proud member of the 2011 community team
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13 months ago ::
May 24, 2012 - 11:41PM
#37
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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Basically, the judge is saying "becomes untapped" actually means "has become untapped". In English, those means different things. In Magic, apparently not.
Well, either that or the judgement assumes Wake Thrasher triggers on a game state (thus subject to 603.8) even though "becoming something" is clearly an event, not a state, and thus shouldn't be subject to 603.8.
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13 months ago ::
May 24, 2012 - 11:41PM
#38
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if the list of "looks back in time" triggered abilities listed in 603.6d also included "triggered abilities that involve a permanent untapping", then the Wake Thrasher WOULD get the bonus?
Nope.
and if the answer is no, is it because
- all events that trigger triggered abilities aren't seen directly, but ONLY deduced by comparing game states that happened one after the other?
i know i may be confusing things a bit here, but it's only 'cause i want to learn these interesting rules. (i hope i'm not being too annoying)
Not quite. It's actually because of this rule--the bolded part lays out exactly how:
603.2d Some trigger events use the word "becomes" (for example, "becomes tapped" or "becomes blocked"). These trigger only at the time the named event happens -- they don't trigger if that state already exists or retrigger if it persists. Similarly, they don't trigger if an object enters a zone in that state.
Example: An ability that triggers when a permanent "becomes tapped" triggers only when the status of a permanent that's already on the battlefield changes from untapped to tapped.
The Paradise doesn't go from "on the battlefield tapped" to "on the battlefield untapped". So no matter from which direction you're looking at it, it still doesn't trigger.
And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
--Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary
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13 months ago ::
May 24, 2012 - 11:41PM
#39
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2011
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enigma256 said: it replaces the untapping and puts the land in your hand instead
that's why waketrasher doesn't get the bonus.
but enigma, there is a ruling on gatherer that seems to contradict what you just wrote:
It will return even if some effect prevents you from untapping it. The ability is not replacing the untapping of the land in any way.
the reason why Wake Thrasher doesn't get the bonus would be simple if what you wrote was true, though, lol
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13 months ago ::
May 24, 2012 - 11:45PM
#40
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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it replaces the untapping and puts the land in your hand instead
No, it clearly doesn't replace untapping because you can't do "A" as you do "B" if you do "A" instead of "B". "Sing a song as you walk" vs "Sing a song instead of walking" are undeniably different.
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