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Magic: The Gathering Rules Q&A how does "the game" know /"see" triggered...
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Switch to Forum Live View how does "the game" know /"see" triggered abilities happening?(Undiscovered Paradise+Wake Thrasher)
13 months ago  ::  Jun 01, 2012 - 4:53PM #91
2goth4U
Date Joined: Oct 29, 2007
Posts: 9,262

Jun 1, 2012 -- 2:48PM, ikegami wrote:

the game simply has you do a second action at the same time



yes, it is possible for two actions to occur to the same object during the event
eg. Planar Cleansing + creature with Totem Armor
eg. The Mimeoplasm entering the field copying and exiling another The Mimeoplasm in a graveyard repeatedly

but, there are cases where they can not as well
eg. Sutured Ghoul entering the field from a graveyard and the player wants to exile Sutured Ghoul
eg. two Mycoloth s simultaneously entering the field can't devour the same creatures

That being said...
a trigger that triggers on a status change has to see the the status of the object before and after the event to trigger.
We can infer that from the [O] ruling and common sense. edit: and CR603.2d

Would you expect Wake Thrasher to trigger from a permanent entering the field in an untapped state?
Of course not, it has to go from tapped to untapped between the two game states to trigger.

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13 months ago  ::  Jun 01, 2012 - 10:17PM #92
jeff-heikkinen
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Jun 1, 2012 -- 3:19PM, ikegami wrote:

The bold part, for starters. Your conclusion does not follow from your premises. What about during?


There is no "during". As about seventeen posts in this thread have clearly stated, the game goes directly from a state where UP is on the battlefield tapped to a state where it is in its owner's hand where the terms "tapped" and "untapped" don't apply. There is nothing in between.

You actually said yourself that those events happen at the same time (not here, but in your earlier direct reply to me). So you've already conceded the key point, whether you realized it or not - you just don't seem to have thought its implications through.

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DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
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13 months ago  ::  Jun 02, 2012 - 2:30AM #93
Merestil_Haye
Date Joined: Aug 6, 2003
Posts: 4,171

Jun 1, 2012 -- 3:19PM, ikegami wrote:

What about during?


The game does not care about "during" under normal circumstances.

The game checks for triggered abilities by comparing the gamestate before the event with the gamestate after the event. For an ability that triggers on a permanent changing status to fire, the permanent must exist both in the gamestate before the event and the gamestate after the event for the game to pick up on the change. If that permanent ceases to exist during the event, the status change cannot be detected and the trigger will not fire.

603.2d seems relevant.

Some trigger events use the word “becomes” (for example, “becomes tapped” or “becomes blocked&rdquo. These trigger only at the time the named event happens—they don’t trigger if that state already exists or retrigger if it persists. Similarly, they don’t trigger if an object enters a zone in that state.
Example: An ability that triggers when a permanent “becomes tapped” triggers only when the status of a permanent that’s already on the battlefield changes from untapped to tapped.


Don't be fooled by the fact that it's talking about a permanent becoming tapped - it's quite clearly meant to apply to all status changes.

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13 months ago  ::  Jun 02, 2012 - 7:57AM #94
Chaikov
Date Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Posts: 5,792

Jun 1, 2012 -- 1:04PM, Grenandine wrote:

Not that I know the rules that well, but I would think that the [O] ruling is correct.


O-Rulings cannot ever be «correct» nor «incorrect».
Just like Laws, they are decrees, in other words arbitrary decisions from the Rules team (or ruling elite). 
They may be «sensible» and/or «fair»,
or they may be «stupid» and/or «unfair» (like laws often are...),
but they may not be «correct», because this word doesn't apply here.



That being said, we do have an OR; the question has been settled.
Let's just hope they will correct the wording of the card to make things clearer.

Something in the lines of «...instead of untapping Paradise, bounce it...» perhaps.     

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13 months ago  ::  Jun 02, 2012 - 8:13AM #95
Argus_Panoptes
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Jun 2, 2012 -- 7:57AM, Chaikov wrote:



Something in the lines of «...instead of untapping Paradise, bounce it...» perhaps.     



That would alter behavior with things like Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger .

No, I am not a judge.  That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.
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13 months ago  ::  Jun 02, 2012 - 12:14PM #96
jeff-heikkinen
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Jun 2, 2012 -- 7:57AM, Chaikov wrote:

Jun 1, 2012 -- 1:04PM, Grenandine wrote:

Not that I know the rules that well, but I would think that the [O] ruling is correct.


O-Rulings cannot ever be «correct» nor «incorrect».
Just like Laws, they are decrees, in other words arbitrary decisions from the Rules team (or ruling elite). 
They may be «sensible» and/or «fair»,
or they may be «stupid» and/or «unfair» (like laws often are...),
but they may not be «correct», because this word doesn't apply here.



That being said, we do have an OR; the question has been settled.
Let's just hope they will correct the wording of the card to make things clearer.

Something in the lines of «...instead of untapping Paradise, bounce it...» perhaps.


I think this is just a semantic quibble and we agree on the important stuff, but I would say instead that they are correct by definition, but - like most things that are true by definition - not terribly informative about the underlying phenomena.

Jeff Heikkinen
DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
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13 months ago  ::  Jun 02, 2012 - 1:26PM #97
Tyrsisknight
Date Joined: May 24, 2012
Posts: 306

Jun 2, 2012 -- 7:57AM, Chaikov wrote:



Something in the lines of «...instead of untapping Paradise, bounce it...» perhaps.     



What about;
"Undiscovered Paradise does not untap during your next untap step.
: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. At the beginning of your next upkeep, return Undiscovered Paradise to your hand."

It's a rather clunky fix, but would solve the problem I think. Alternatively, adding the first line into the use of the land would avoid any problems arising from stuff causing lands to hit play tapped to start with.

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13 months ago  ::  Jun 02, 2012 - 1:29PM #98
Enigma256
Date Joined: Jul 28, 2010
Posts: 13,834
that would make it better, since you get priority in the upkeep step and can untap it there in some way and use it
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