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13 months ago ::
Jun 01, 2012 - 4:53PM
#91
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
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MtG Rules Advisor & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJDJ VortexDCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320 Wit found in Rules Q&ARPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?" My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out
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13 months ago ::
Jun 01, 2012 - 10:17PM
#92
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2001
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The bold part, for starters. Your conclusion does not follow from your premises. What about during?
There is no "during". As about seventeen posts in this thread have clearly stated, the game goes directly from a state where UP is on the battlefield tapped to a state where it is in its owner's hand where the terms "tapped" and "untapped" don't apply. There is nothing in between.
You actually said yourself that those events happen at the same time (not here, but in your earlier direct reply to me). So you've already conceded the key point, whether you realized it or not - you just don't seem to have thought its implications through.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
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13 months ago ::
Jun 02, 2012 - 2:30AM
#93
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What about during?
The game does not care about "during" under normal circumstances.
The game checks for triggered abilities by comparing the gamestate before the event with the gamestate after the event. For an ability that triggers on a permanent changing status to fire, the permanent must exist both in the gamestate before the event and the gamestate after the event for the game to pick up on the change. If that permanent ceases to exist during the event, the status change cannot be detected and the trigger will not fire.
603.2d seems relevant.
Some trigger events use the word “becomes” (for example, “becomes tapped” or “becomes blocked&rdquo . These trigger only at the time the named event happens—they don’t trigger if that state already exists or retrigger if it persists. Similarly, they don’t trigger if an object enters a zone in that state. Example: An ability that triggers when a permanent “becomes tapped” triggers only when the status of a permanent that’s already on the battlefield changes from untapped to tapped. Don't be fooled by the fact that it's talking about a permanent becoming tapped - it's quite clearly meant to apply to all status changes.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 02, 2012 - 7:57AM
#94
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2006
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Not that I know the rules that well, but I would think that the [O] ruling is correct.
O-Rulings cannot ever be «correct» nor «incorrect». Just like Laws, they are decrees, in other words arbitrary decisions from the Rules team (or ruling elite). They may be «sensible» and/or «fair», or they may be «stupid» and/or «unfair» (like laws often are...), but they may not be «correct», because this word doesn't apply here.
That being said, we do have an OR; the question has been settled. Let's just hope they will correct the wording of the card to make things clearer.
Something in the lines of «...instead of untapping Paradise, bounce it...» perhaps.
«Dystocracy : A system of government in which corrupt leadership colludes with dishonest bankers and greedy elites in order to ensure that productive members of society –people who actually do useful work- bear the greatest share of taxes while gaining the least benefit possible.»
Sounds familiar?
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13 months ago ::
Jun 02, 2012 - 8:13AM
#95
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Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2004
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Something in the lines of «...instead of untapping Paradise, bounce it...» perhaps.
That would alter behavior with things like Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger .
No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 02, 2012 - 12:14PM
#96
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2001
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Not that I know the rules that well, but I would think that the [O] ruling is correct.
O-Rulings cannot ever be «correct» nor «incorrect». Just like Laws, they are decrees, in other words arbitrary decisions from the Rules team (or ruling elite). They may be «sensible» and/or «fair», or they may be «stupid» and/or «unfair» (like laws often are...), but they may not be «correct», because this word doesn't apply here.
That being said, we do have an OR; the question has been settled. Let's just hope they will correct the wording of the card to make things clearer.
Something in the lines of «...instead of untapping Paradise, bounce it...» perhaps.
I think this is just a semantic quibble and we agree on the important stuff, but I would say instead that they are correct by definition, but - like most things that are true by definition - not terribly informative about the underlying phenomena.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
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13 months ago ::
Jun 02, 2012 - 1:26PM
#97
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2012
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Something in the lines of «...instead of untapping Paradise, bounce it...» perhaps.
What about; "Undiscovered Paradise does not untap during your next untap step.
: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. At the beginning of your next upkeep, return Undiscovered Paradise to your hand."
It's a rather clunky fix, but would solve the problem I think. Alternatively, adding the first line into the use of the land would avoid any problems arising from stuff causing lands to hit play tapped to start with.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 02, 2012 - 1:29PM
#98
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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that would make it better, since you get priority in the upkeep step and can untap it there in some way and use it
proud member of the 2011 community team
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