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13 months ago ::
May 24, 2012 - 11:30AM
#1
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Date Joined:
May 23, 2012
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if i control a heartless summoning and a geralf's messanger does the heartless allow for repeated undying? does the -1-1 cancel out the +1+1
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13 months ago ::
May 24, 2012 - 11:33AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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Heartless Summoning  doesn't give -1/-1 counters, so it does not remove the +1/+1 counter from Undying.
proud member of the 2011 community team
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13 months ago ::
May 24, 2012 - 11:42AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Aug 15, 2006
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No - -1/-1 and justa -1/-1 Counter are not the same. Compare Giant Growth  and Battlegrowth  .
[c]Forest[/c] gives you Forest 
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13 months ago ::
May 24, 2012 - 1:01PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Mar 29, 2005
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What's more, even if Heartless Summoning worked by causing creatures to enter the battlefield with -1/-1 counters, Undying still wouldn't work an indefinite number of times, because the creature would leave the battlefield with both +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
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13 months ago ::
May 24, 2012 - 9:46PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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What's more, even if Heartless Summoning worked by causing creatures to enter the battlefield with -1/-1 counters, Undying still wouldn't work an indefinite number of times, because the creature would leave the battlefield with both +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
That's not true.
CR 704.5r If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
It would indeed work.
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13 months ago ::
May 24, 2012 - 10:44PM
#6
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What's more, even if Heartless Summoning worked by causing creatures to enter the battlefield with -1/-1 counters, Undying still wouldn't work an indefinite number of times, because the creature would leave the battlefield with both +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
That's not true.
CR 704.5r If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
It would indeed work.
Novacat is referring to if the amount of negative -1/-1 counters on the creature causes the creature to have 0 or less toughness when state-based actions are performed.
704.7. If a state-based action results in a permanent leaving the battlefield at the same time other state-based actions were performed, that permanent's last known information is derived from the game state before any of those state-based actions were performed.
Example: You control Young Wolf  , a 1/1 creature with undying, and it has a +1/+1 counter on it. A spell puts three -1/-1 counters on Young Wolf. Before state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf has one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters on it. After state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf is in the graveyard [for having 0 or less toughness]. When it was last on the battlefield, it had a +1/+1 counter on it, so undying will not trigger.
Also, from the Dark Ascenstion FAQ
If a creature with undying that has a +1/+1 counter on it receives enough -1/-1 counters to cause it to be destroyed by lethal damage or put into its owner's graveyard for having 0 or less toughness, undying won't trigger and the card won't return to the battlefield. That's because undying checks the creature's existence just before it leaves the battlefield, and it still has all those counters on it at that point. Edit: Edited because of a slight derp. My writing skills still need improving.
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13 months ago ::
May 24, 2012 - 11:15PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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What's more, even if Heartless Summoning worked by causing creatures to enter the battlefield with -1/-1 counters, Undying still wouldn't work an indefinite number of times, because the creature would leave the battlefield with both +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
That's not true.
it is true if the creature enters as 0/0 or less after applying Undying counter and the -1/-1 counter
if it dies later you are right, counters would have eliminated each other.
proud member of the 2011 community team
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13 months ago ::
May 25, 2012 - 9:09AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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Novacat is referring to if the amount of negative -1/-1 counters on the creature causes the creature to have 0 or less toughness when state-based actions are performed.
That's not what he said at all. He said you can't make undying work repeatedly by giving -1/-1 counters, and you absolutely can.
---
Why does the foum software always add the following to my posts:
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" class="mceContentBody " contenteditable="true" />
I have to edit all of my posts to remove it!
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13 months ago ::
May 25, 2012 - 9:13AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2006
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Novacat is referring to if the amount of negative -1/-1 counters on the creature causes the creature to have 0 or less toughness when state-based actions are performed.
That's not what he said at all. He said you can't make undying work repeatedly by giving -1/-1 counters, and you absolutely can.
What he meant is
«if a creature dies with BOTH +1/+1 counters AND -1/-1 counters on it, Undying won't trigger»,
which is true.
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Sounds familiar?
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13 months ago ::
May 25, 2012 - 9:34AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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Why does the foum software always add the following to my posts:
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" class="mceContentBody " contenteditable="true" />
I have to edit all of my posts to remove it!
because you copy too much (or too little, so the tag gets broken up)
the forum wants to make it easier to format, but often you have to dive into the HTML to get the desired effect, and even that doesn't help you hotlinking cards with special characters because it insists on replacing them.
proud member of the 2011 community team
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