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1 year ago ::
May 08, 2012 - 7:40AM
#1
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My opponent plays a Cavern of Souls  and mistakenly names Titan as the creature type. According to the current Competitive rule set, I do not have to correct him. Later in the tournament, he tries to use that Cavern to cast a Sun Titan  and only has 1 source of white mana. When I call the judge over, what is the call?
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1 year ago ::
May 08, 2012 - 7:41AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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since Titan is not a valid creature type he can't choose it in the first place
but i'm not sure what the consequences of that are.
proud member of the 2011 community team
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1 year ago ::
May 08, 2012 - 8:03AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Oct 13, 2002
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My opponent plays a Cavern of Souls and mistakenly names Titan as the creature type. According to the current Competitive rule set, I do not have to correct him.
This is not correct. You no longer need to point out your opponent's triggers for them, but you can't let them take illegal actions like naming a non-existent creature type. This is still failure to maintain game state if accidental and fraud if intentional.
All Generalizations are Bad
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1 year ago ::
May 08, 2012 - 8:08AM
#4
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- UnCon Prizewinner 2008
- …mmm
Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2008
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According to the current Competitive rule set, I do not have to correct him.
3. GAME PLAY ERRORS Both players are expected to maintain the game rules and to share some responsibility for any errors that may occur involving public information. As a result, no attempt should be made to determine or correct any advantage gained in assessing the penalty and associated procedures for fixing the offense. Additionally, for most Game Play Errors not caught within a time that a player could reasonably be expected to notice, teammates and opponents receive a Game Play Error — Failure to Maintain Game State penalty. In multiplayer games, all participants in the match other than the offending player should receive this penalty if they meet the criteria. 3.6. Game Play Error — Game Rule Violation
Philosophy
While Game Rule Violations can be attributed to one player, they usually occur publicly and both players are expected to be mindful of what is happening in the game. It is tempting to try and “fix” these errors, but it is important that they be handled consistently, regardless of their impact on the game. 3.7. Game Play Error — Failure to Maintain Game State
Definition
A player allows another player in the game to commit a Game Play Error involving an effect or action that he or she does not control, and has not pointed it out immediately. If a judge believes a player is intentionally not pointing out other players’ illegal actions, either for his or her own advantage, or in the hope of bringing it up at a more strategically advantageous time, the infraction is Cheating — Fraud. Not pointing out an opponent’s missed trigger is never Failure to Maintain Game State or Fraud. Philosophy
If an error is caught before a player could gain advantage, then the dangers of the ongoing game state becoming corrupted are much lower. If the error is allowed to persist, at least some of the fault lies with the opponent, who has also failed to notice the error. Judges should not usually upgrade this penalty, as players will be reluctant to call a judge if they believe that they could receive a significant penalty as a result. You are liable for anything that goes wrong. None of this says otherwise. In fact, if he casts the Sun Titan and you call him out for it, if I were the judge, you would get the infraction. That would be a clear display of you recognizing an illegal game state and not ammending it for your own personal gain.
The penalties range from a Warning (standard illegal game state) to a Disqualification (cheating).
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞
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I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
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1 year ago ::
May 08, 2012 - 8:12AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Mar 29, 2005
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You are liable for anything that goes wrong. None of this says otherwise. In fact, if he casts the Sun Titan and you call him out for it, if I were the judge, you would get the infraction. That would be a clear display of you recognizing an illegal game state and not ammending it for your own personal gain.
That would be jumping to conclusions. I, for example, wouldn't necessarily know off the top of my head whether or not Titan is a creature type, but I can see that it's not a creature type of Sun Titan . In that case, the mistake was not known until the Titan was being cast.
However, the OP has inferred that he did know, and chose not to say anything, believing that he was not required to do so.
Ever feel like people on these forums can't possibly understand how wrong they are? Feeling trolled? Don't get mad. Report Post.
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1 year ago ::
May 08, 2012 - 8:21AM
#6
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- UnCon Prizewinner 2008
- …mmm
Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2008
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That would be jumping to conclusions. I, for example, wouldn't necessarily know off the top of my head whether or not Titan is a creature type, but I can see that it's not a creature type of Sun Titan . In that case, the mistake was not known until the Titan was being cast.
However, the OP has inferred that he did know, and chose not to say anything, believing that he was not required to do so.
If a player names Titan and tries to cast a spell named Titan, it would be fairly obvious that he intended to use the mana to cast a Titan-like creature. Most solutions to illegal game states are resolved by an Occam's razor approach of the "most simple answer is often the most correct". If the players did not take it upon themselves to simply change the Cavern of Souls to "Giant" and called over a judge (which is actually proper), one of two explainations is likely to happen...
1) "Hey, we read Sun Titan and noticed that 'Titan' isn't actually a creature type. What should we do with this Cavern of Souls?"
2) ... is malicious.
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞
Show
I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
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1 year ago ::
May 08, 2012 - 8:35AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2006
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...you can't let them take illegal actions like naming a non-existent creature type. This is still failure to maintain game state if accidental and fraud if intentional.
I know that such is the rule.
What I still don't understand is how such a rule ever came to be
(beside the fact that it was copy-pasted from Chess Tournament Rules).
What justifies such a rule? How does one demonstrates its pertinence?
I cannot fathom WHY I, as a Player, should be acting as Judge when faced with an incompetent Opponent.
I've said this before, and I've heard numerous «arguments» to «justify» this rule.
None yet registered as valid. Each one I heard -yet- sums up to hogwash.
I'll bet someone will still reply with such powerful «argument» as «The rules says you have to maintain gamestate!»...
So I repeat: I know that such is the rule.
I'm just saying it should be deleted.
«Dystocracy : A system of government in which corrupt leadership colludes with dishonest bankers and greedy elites in order to ensure that productive members of society –people who actually do useful work- bear the greatest share of taxes while gaining the least benefit possible.»
Sounds familiar?
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1 year ago ::
May 08, 2012 - 8:38AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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what would be the alternative to that rule?
proud member of the 2011 community team
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1 year ago ::
May 08, 2012 - 8:40AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2006
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I say delete it.
Thus, the alternative is an empty space.
«Dystocracy : A system of government in which corrupt leadership colludes with dishonest bankers and greedy elites in order to ensure that productive members of society –people who actually do useful work- bear the greatest share of taxes while gaining the least benefit possible.»
Sounds familiar?
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1 year ago ::
May 08, 2012 - 8:47AM
#10
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- UnCon Prizewinner 2008
- …mmm
Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2008
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The rule exists to prevent a massive hate-filled ball of "wrong" that would inevitably and consistantly occur if the rule didn't exist.
"A third or subsequent Warning for a Game Play Error offense in the same category should be upgraded to a Game Loss."
If your opponent continuously ****s up and you call it out, they will be punished and you rewarded for your hard efforts of using common sense. Offenses do build up at higher events. Your opponent won't just recieve a thousand slaps on the wrist. However, if you're playing at an FNM-like event, you're likely to see the thousand slaps. In that case, it's your own damn fault for expecting more from a casual event.
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞
Show
I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
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