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Adjani Goldsmane vs Ichigo Kurasaki
Chandara Naalar vs Havok
Jace Beleren vs Jean Gray
Garruk Wildspeaker vs Guyver
Liliana Vess vs Mephisito
A M:tG Player level Planeswalker vs Whomever

You see where I'm going with this.  We all know how Planeswalkers battle amongst themselves but how they would do battle against non Planewsalkers and/or non Multiverse characters?  It's an interesting question that is for sure.

First let's ask some basic questions about the Planeswalkers themselves.

Why doesn't a Planeswalker ever seem capable of basic physical attacks?  We see Adjani Goldsmane holding a huge axe weapon in his picture but he like all other Planeswalkers can't attack for a damn.

The Planeswalker seems to be for all intents and purposes a 0/20 being when utilizing the full extent of their Planeswalking abilities.  The comics where we see Jace, Garruk, and the like venturing around doing normal human feats of attacks and athletics is because for whatever reason they are not accessing full Planeswalker potential.

A fully realized Planeswalker is in a trance in which their bodies are immobile and the only way they can interact with anything is via their spells. In fact to better understand this let's look at power and toughness.  It would be more accurate to call these attribute pairings offense and defense.  So a Planewalker using his full potential has a personal force field with a defense rating of 20.  When this is reduced to 0 the Planeswalker doesn't die... he is fully vulnerable to any and all attacks whether it be a lightning bolt from the sky or a knife to the face.

Okay I get it.  What about Planeswalkers that don't have fully realized potentials like the pre mentioned Adjani and his axe?

We see in the comics that these sub Planeswalkers are running around doing things and most definitely not in some kind of meditative trance.  So when a creature attacks Adjani why can't he at least dish out a measly one damage?  In fact it would make more sense for sub Planeswalkers to have a power/loyalty rating that corresponds with power/toughness.  Or at the very least have the Loyalty rating act as the equivalent of the power attribute when in combat.

Perhaps when Player Characters are controlling Planeswalkers they also have to go into a trance?

So what about when the are not synced up another Planeswalker?

Honestly I don't know.
 
But I suppose that's why I'm here.

Magic is a game. It isn't perfect and will never be a perfect translation of what we see in the stories.

The offical explaination for Planeswalker cards is that you are asking the Planeswalker to show up and help you out. That's why they have loyalty counters.

I don't think this thread belongs here.
I honestly don't know where it belongs...

I'm not sure where your meditative trance comes from. The planeswalkers more inclined to hit people with weapons have cards that actually do that. Gideon Jura can swing at people, Sorin Markov and Ajani Vengeant can deal damage to creatures and players. I mean, just look at Sorin's Vengeance . He's not in a trance, he's running somone through with his sword and magically draining their blood.

As for us, we're mages. We're not warriors or soldiers or anything else. We kill people with magic. So I'm killing you by deflecting your lightning bolt back at you, instead of jabbing at you with a spear. It doesn't mean I'm in a trance.

May 5, 2012 -- 4:36PM, lihimsidhe wrote:

.

Why doesn't a Planeswalker ever seem capable of basic physical attacks?  We see Adjani Goldsmane holding a huge ax weapon in his picture but he like all other Planeswalkers can't attack for a damn.

For the game to work, all Planeswalkers need to follow the same rules. They're already complex enough as it is. Making them planeswalker/creature hybrids would take it too far.

In the stories we see them doing physical combat rather often, and they handle themselves well.

This is just the stuff I'm aware off:

Ajani probably know how to wield that ax. He grew up on a world that's basically a big jungle. If he didn't know how to fight, he'd be dead.

Elspeth had classical knight training on Bant, so she definitely know how to use her sword and there's a good chance she's capable with other weapons. We've also seen her perform adequately during an arena fight.

Garruk is strong and skilled. He could probably bring down a medium-size baloth.

Gideon is a fighter rather than a mage. I didn't read the novel, but his skill are probably praiseworthy.

Jace had basic sword-fighting training on Ravnica, and he's combines this with his natural illusionary magic to do some neat tricks.

In the comics we see Koth fighting the Phyrexians rather well.

Liliana prefers to use zombies, shades or schemes to do her dirty work, but she's seen handling herself in a bar brawl at the start of Agent of Artifice. 

Bolas is an enormous dragon. 

Sarkhan grew up on a place that hunted dragons for sport. If he can bring down a dragon, there's a good chance he knows how to fight.

Sorin is an ancient vampire. If he didn't learn how to use his sword by now, he wouldn't be carrying it.

Even Venser is seen doing some cool teleportation fighting in the comics.

May 6, 2012 -- 3:07AM, Yxoque wrote:

Ajani probably know how to wield that ax. He grew up on a world that's basically a big jungle. If he didn't know how to fight, he'd be dead.

Ajani killed a Godsire by himself.

Garruk is strong and skilled. He could probably bring down a medium-size baloth.

Garruk has hunted Wurms in the Turntimber, he's probably better than a medium sized baloth.

Gideon is a fighter rather than a mage. I didn't read the novel, but his skill are probably praiseworthy.

Gideon's a control player. He'd rather tap down a creature than fight it.

Jace had basic sword-fighting training on Ravnica, and he's combines this with his natural illusionary magic to do some neat tricks.

He's not great, but then again, I think it's the surprise more than anything with Jace.

Liliana prefers to use zombies, shades or schemes to do her dirty work, but she's seen handling herself in a bar brawl at the start of Agent of Artifice. 

Not in hand to hand. She magics up the place.

Sarkhan grew up on a place that hunted dragons for sport. If he can bring down a dragon, there's a good chance he knows how to fight.

He never fought a dragon himself before he ascended. Dragons were nearly completely extinct by the time he came about. I also think his general tactic is "turn into dragon, fight other dragon."

Sorin is an ancient vampire. If he didn't learn how to use his sword by now, he wouldn't be carrying it.

Oh, he definitely knows how to use the sword, though in fairness, he usually defaults to magic to wipe out huge numbers of the enemy without having to dirty his blade.

Even Venser is seen doing some cool teleportation fighting in the comics.

I resent the implication that Venser is cool in any way.

Additionally, Nissa has a living vine whip/sword and is very skilled at battle magic.
Karn usually just blasts things with either wrath of god or chain lightning.
Chandra burninates the countryside. CONSTANTLY throws fireballs.
Tezzeret.... is not very skilled at hand to hand. He plans too much and doesn't want to rely on actual magical talents or physical power.

Barinellos, I ask this out of pure curiosity but do you have something personal against Venser?

I mean did he kill your family or sleep with your sister, or kill your family THEN sleep with your sister or something?

Because you really seem to dislike the guy from a couple of posts that I've seen

May 6, 2012 -- 5:06AM, Cogminded wrote:

Barinellos, I ask this out of pure curiosity but do you have something personal against Venser? I mean did he kill your family or sleep with your sister, or kill your family THEN sleep with your sister or something? Because you really seem to dislike the guy from a couple of posts that I've seen

>Bracing for impact
>Getting popcorn

See that's what I like about this place. I can post somewhat useful information, and I just know Barinellos will come in and improve or correct that information. 

@Barinellos: I don't share the loathing for Venser that most people do here. But even if I did, that teleportation fight was cool. It would be exactly how I would fight if I could teleport, which is probably my favorite power.

Venser is a hateable character because he was an unsympathetic whining bitchy bitch during his first appearence, and then he became a drug-using wanker in Quest For Karn while being presented as a Mary Sue.

May 6, 2012 -- 7:10AM, Shamsiel wrote:

Venser is a hateable character because he was an unsympathetic whining bitchy bitch during his first appearence, and then he became a drug-using wanker in Quest For Karn while being presented as a Mary Sue.

Venser was fine for what he was, he was an immature, plot point who was finding his way in the world. The problem was making him the main character of the novels when he had no ability to ressolve the issues of the books.

Bascially the books said, "Venser is the hero, we are going to focus on him during most of the books. Oh by the way, the only people capable of closing the Time rifts are Oldwalkers, and comprehending them is beyond Venser." Venser should have been dropped back in Urborg about three chapters after showing up. (Radha as well, i don't understand why Teferi kept them around).

WHen Jeska is more innovative and proactive then your "main character" you have a story problem. 

* They should have just focused on Terferi and the super planeswalker team the entire story, cut out most of Venser/Radha and the weaver king, and explain the mending. (Having Bolas be the main villain of the books)

May 6, 2012 -- 3:07AM, Yxoque wrote:

Garruk is strong and skilled. He could probably bring down a medium-size baloth.

I really like this measurement of fighting strength, and not just because it includes my favorite word, "medium-size". I think you could make it more precise - you could measure baloth size in terms of length or weight or something. You could make a numerical scale with all the characters, measured in terms of the size of baloth they could defeat.

Also, I spent far too much time on gatherer trying to verify that a medium-size baloth is in fact weaker than a wurm. This is true, with the possible exception of certain landfall baloths, but one should probably just classify those as large.

Talking about baloth's, what is it that defines their creature type? Apart from creative having decided against making it a type, that is? To me they seems like big leathery and horned mammal-beasts, but is there more to that?

And to skip the deserved venserbashing and return to the topic, I think if you want to compare them to characters from other verses you need sort of a scale to measure them up to, and I think we established that that's a tad difficult to establish because of relative placements. Bolas, though, is totally the kingpin.

May 6, 2012 -- 2:18PM, Terti wrote:

Talking about baloth's, what is it that defines their creature type? Apart from creative having decided against making it a type, that is? To me they seems like big leathery and horned mammal-beasts, but is there more to that?

And to skip the deserved venserbashing and return to the topic, I think if you want to compare them to characters from other verses you need sort of a scale to measure them up to, and I think we established that that's a tad difficult to establish because of relative placements. Bolas, though, is totally the kingpin.

What defines an elf? Baloths are visually distinct. And i'm in favor of reducing the number of beasts in magic.

Pointy ears and affinity for trees, usually . I certainly agree that I would like to see them as their own creature type, but I'm just wondering if that description was all there was to them as I missed most that came after Ravenous Baloth .

Judging from the art and flavor text for the various Baloth cards...

Build: Baloths follow a general quadroped body plan. They are heavily built; the most lithe member of the family seen so far, the arboreal Ravenous Baloth , is still very stout. All Baloth species seen so far have claws; while a few of them (Such as Leatherback Baloth ) have smaller claws attached to vestigial digits built to support their weight, many of them have dextrous digits with large claws; as indicated in the art of Enormous Baloth, they might use their claws to push aside tree trunks that inhibit their passage. Some more common features of Baloths are horns and back spines. These vary in size and shape, and in the case of Leatherbacks, the spikes seem to be extensions of a larger endodermal layer. However, their position is usually the same, with them being located at the base of the skull and running down the back as a dorsal layer. Skin color in most Baloths is very bright, with greenish and reddish hues being the only colors seen so far.

Varieties: Zendikar Baloths and Dominarian Baloths are primarily distinguished by their head shapes. Dominarian Baloths have longer heads with small spines protruding perpendicularly from the back; Zendikar Baloths have shorter faces and boxier heads, with horns extending from the sides of the head, and their bodies are higher, like that of a Stegosaurus. The one exception to this general rule is Baloth Cage Trap ; however, since Zendikar receives much traffic from Planeswalkers, it's not unlikely that a non-native Baloth variety is seen in the art. Obsidian Baloth is not specified to be from either plane, but it seems to match the Dominarian model more.

Social Structure: Dominarian Baloths have never been seen in herds; the only indication of behavior we have from them is Ravenous Baloth's ability to cannibalize its own kind. However, Zendikar Baloths have shown both solitary and herd behavior. Territorial Baloth 's behavior is notable enough to be part of the name, so perhaps the norm is more social. Rampaging Baloths indicates that they are at least willing to tolerate each others' presence when they get riled up. However, Baloth Woodcrasher 's flavor text definitely brings up the problems that a bunch of Baloths would have living together, since they are all enormous animals and eat a lot.

Diet: Baloths are omnivores with an emphasis on predation ( Enormous Baloth ). Most of the Baloths seen so far in Magic have sharp teeth of varying sizes, similar to those of a crocodile; Ravenous Baloth defies this rule with much more even teeth, although that could be blamed on Kroshan mutations from the Mirari. Due to their immense size, most Baloths do not need to use their teeth on the majority of their prey, and the positions of the teeth on Towering Baloth , Ravenous Baloth , and Durkwood Baloth all indicate that they use their teeth at most to grasp prey, since they are primarily located at the front of the mouth. The flavor text for Baloth Woodcrasher indicates that they are voracious eaters, fitting for their size and activity level.

I hope we see more Baloths. I like how they're Green's go-to for big, dumb fat. :-)

Recently it's been behemoths too. Lots on Alara, one in M10 , and now Craterhoof Behemoth . Which makes me wonder what the difference between them is.

Are baloths carnivorous? If so, I'd say behemoths are a lot bigger (in actual size, not power/toughness) but herbivores and so less aggressive, whereas baloths are smaller but tougher and meaner.

May 7, 2012 -- 1:02AM, Gamma-Mage wrote:

Recently it's been behemoths too. Lots on Alara, one in M10 , and now Craterhoof Behemoth . Which makes me wonder what the difference between them is.

Are baloths carnivorous? If so, I'd say behemoths are a lot bigger (in actual size, not power/toughness) but herbivores and so less aggressive, whereas baloths are smaller but tougher and meaner.

Baloths are ominivorous, but definitely eat meat more often.
Aside from that, behemoths aren't exactly a singular thing. Thoctars were behemoths, but they were carnivores. Plowbeasts on the other hand, were herbivores.

Behemoth isn't a universal creature type, it's a description.

I thought that the univeral description of Nayan beasts was 'gargantuan'. And that thoctars, ceredons, rannets, paleaoloths and behemoths were all types of gargantuan.

May 7, 2012 -- 3:40AM, Gamma-Mage wrote:

I thought that the univeral description of Nayan beasts was 'gargantuan'. And that thoctars, ceredons, rannets, paleaoloths and behemoths were all types of gargantuan.

"Behemoth" has been used a lot in Magic; the name is used as a reference to the mythical behemoth, a massive bull-like animal. While there are a few creatures labeled "behemoth" with similar builds in Alara (Spellbreaker Behemoth, Spearbreaker Behemoth, and Beacon Behemoth all have gorilla-style physiques with hornless rhino-like heads), the vast majority of uses of the word "behemoth" in flavor text indicate that it's a title given to all large beasts of Naya.

As for specific Nayan behemoth/gargantuan varieties, we have...

Cerodon: Ambush predators that live in misty areas. Only one species known.
Thoctars: Ferocious carnivores that live in secluded areas. Multiple species have been seen. They are probably mammals.
Rannets: Carnivores with two large fangs and curved horns that live on mountains. They look like big lizards.
Plowbeasts: Herbivores that were harnessed by Nayan humans for agriculture. They look like mammals.

There are other varieties (Although the reavers are not behemoths, since they come from Grixis instead of Naya), but you get the point.

Actually if you read the flavour text of Dreg Reaver , it hints that they are the reanimated corpses of gargantuans that died before the Sundering. If, that is, gargantuans actually did exist before the Sundering.

It's so clearly a Baloth it isn't even funny.

Lightning Reaver looks even more Balothish.

Just hopping in a little late on the Venser hate.  I would much rather have had Radha as a neo-'Walker than Venser.  Venser always struck me as a poor man's Urza Jr. with none of the things that really made Urza less hatable.

Like, for the longest time I was expecting Wizards to go "Oh yeah, Venser is some Urza clone that crawled out of a stasis vat somewhere on Urborg and somehow had a spark of his own.....dun dun duunnnnnnnn!"

I like that. Venser= Urza minus anything you might have reasonably liked about Urza. Based on an admitidaly short reference to Venser this seems accurite.