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May 6, 2012 -- 3:07AM, Yxoque wrote:

Garruk is strong and skilled. He could probably bring down a medium-size baloth.

I really like this measurement of fighting strength, and not just because it includes my favorite word, "medium-size". I think you could make it more precise - you could measure baloth size in terms of length or weight or something. You could make a numerical scale with all the characters, measured in terms of the size of baloth they could defeat.

Also, I spent far too much time on gatherer trying to verify that a medium-size baloth is in fact weaker than a wurm. This is true, with the possible exception of certain landfall baloths, but one should probably just classify those as large.

May 6, 2012 -- 2:18PM, Terti wrote:

Talking about baloth's, what is it that defines their creature type? Apart from creative having decided against making it a type, that is? To me they seems like big leathery and horned mammal-beasts, but is there more to that?

And to skip the deserved venserbashing and return to the topic, I think if you want to compare them to characters from other verses you need sort of a scale to measure them up to, and I think we established that that's a tad difficult to establish because of relative placements. Bolas, though, is totally the kingpin.

What defines an elf? Baloths are visually distinct. And i'm in favor of reducing the number of beasts in magic.

Judging from the art and flavor text for the various Baloth cards...

Build: Baloths follow a general quadroped body plan. They are heavily built; the most lithe member of the family seen so far, the arboreal Ravenous Baloth , is still very stout. All Baloth species seen so far have claws; while a few of them (Such as Leatherback Baloth ) have smaller claws attached to vestigial digits built to support their weight, many of them have dextrous digits with large claws; as indicated in the art of Enormous Baloth, they might use their claws to push aside tree trunks that inhibit their passage. Some more common features of Baloths are horns and back spines. These vary in size and shape, and in the case of Leatherbacks, the spikes seem to be extensions of a larger endodermal layer. However, their position is usually the same, with them being located at the base of the skull and running down the back as a dorsal layer. Skin color in most Baloths is very bright, with greenish and reddish hues being the only colors seen so far.

Varieties: Zendikar Baloths and Dominarian Baloths are primarily distinguished by their head shapes. Dominarian Baloths have longer heads with small spines protruding perpendicularly from the back; Zendikar Baloths have shorter faces and boxier heads, with horns extending from the sides of the head, and their bodies are higher, like that of a Stegosaurus. The one exception to this general rule is Baloth Cage Trap ; however, since Zendikar receives much traffic from Planeswalkers, it's not unlikely that a non-native Baloth variety is seen in the art. Obsidian Baloth is not specified to be from either plane, but it seems to match the Dominarian model more.

Social Structure: Dominarian Baloths have never been seen in herds; the only indication of behavior we have from them is Ravenous Baloth's ability to cannibalize its own kind. However, Zendikar Baloths have shown both solitary and herd behavior. Territorial Baloth 's behavior is notable enough to be part of the name, so perhaps the norm is more social. Rampaging Baloths indicates that they are at least willing to tolerate each others' presence when they get riled up. However, Baloth Woodcrasher 's flavor text definitely brings up the problems that a bunch of Baloths would have living together, since they are all enormous animals and eat a lot.

Diet: Baloths are omnivores with an emphasis on predation ( Enormous Baloth ). Most of the Baloths seen so far in Magic have sharp teeth of varying sizes, similar to those of a crocodile; Ravenous Baloth defies this rule with much more even teeth, although that could be blamed on Kroshan mutations from the Mirari. Due to their immense size, most Baloths do not need to use their teeth on the majority of their prey, and the positions of the teeth on Towering Baloth , Ravenous Baloth , and Durkwood Baloth all indicate that they use their teeth at most to grasp prey, since they are primarily located at the front of the mouth. The flavor text for Baloth Woodcrasher indicates that they are voracious eaters, fitting for their size and activity level.

I hope we see more Baloths. I like how they're Green's go-to for big, dumb fat. :-)

May 7, 2012 -- 1:02AM, Gamma-Mage wrote:

Recently it's been behemoths too. Lots on Alara, one in M10 , and now Craterhoof Behemoth . Which makes me wonder what the difference between them is.

Are baloths carnivorous? If so, I'd say behemoths are a lot bigger (in actual size, not power/toughness) but herbivores and so less aggressive, whereas baloths are smaller but tougher and meaner.

Baloths are ominivorous, but definitely eat meat more often.
Aside from that, behemoths aren't exactly a singular thing. Thoctars were behemoths, but they were carnivores. Plowbeasts on the other hand, were herbivores.

Behemoth isn't a universal creature type, it's a description.

May 7, 2012 -- 3:40AM, Gamma-Mage wrote:

I thought that the univeral description of Nayan beasts was 'gargantuan'. And that thoctars, ceredons, rannets, paleaoloths and behemoths were all types of gargantuan.

"Behemoth" has been used a lot in Magic; the name is used as a reference to the mythical behemoth, a massive bull-like animal. While there are a few creatures labeled "behemoth" with similar builds in Alara (Spellbreaker Behemoth, Spearbreaker Behemoth, and Beacon Behemoth all have gorilla-style physiques with hornless rhino-like heads), the vast majority of uses of the word "behemoth" in flavor text indicate that it's a title given to all large beasts of Naya.

As for specific Nayan behemoth/gargantuan varieties, we have...

Cerodon: Ambush predators that live in misty areas. Only one species known.
Thoctars: Ferocious carnivores that live in secluded areas. Multiple species have been seen. They are probably mammals.
Rannets: Carnivores with two large fangs and curved horns that live on mountains. They look like big lizards.
Plowbeasts: Herbivores that were harnessed by Nayan humans for agriculture. They look like mammals.

There are other varieties (Although the reavers are not behemoths, since they come from Grixis instead of Naya), but you get the point.