A lot of that, though, is going to depend on how Tamiyo is received. If players like having a Planeswalker clearly from a plane of Magic's past, perhaps we'll do more. I know I'd like to see more Planeswalkers who feel like they come from somewhere else.
Flamekin Planeswalker from Lorwyn, please.
I've talked previously about how we decided to make green the best color for soulbond. One of the ways we did this was to put all the power-boosting soulbond cards in green. Why does this matter? Because the power-boosting cards have a very unique quality among soulbond cards. They are the only ones where you are encouraged to pair them with themselves.
When making Zealous Strike was the design team aware that it was making a card obsolete that appeared in Dark Ascension (Skillful Lunge)? Were one of these two cards changed in development in a way that led to this? Obviously making cards strictly better than other cards happens from time to time, especially given the power level of very old cards, but to do it one set later feels more like an oversight.
As far as planeswalkers from other sets go, I'm fine with shoutbacks to older sets, as long as the planeswalker involved seems like he/she has a reason to belong in the world (and preferably, his/her abilities synergize some with that world). For instance, I think Tamiyo makes a lot of sense...in Zendikar. When I think moonfolk, I think bouncing lands, which would fit well with Zendikar's landfall mechanic. Heck, Zendikar seems like such a great place for moonfolk I'm surprised they didn't migrate there en masse, but barring that seeing a moonfolk planeswalker there wouldn't seem that strange. Preferably one whose +1 ability is something along the lines of "bounce a land you control". Something like that would be a cool nod to Magic's history.
But why is Tamiyo in Innistrad? Nothing on her card nor, as near as I can tell, any other card in the set hints at a reason she would be here, or any other way she's affecting the world. She seems out of place, and I don't think that "but planeswalkers can come from all over the place" is a good enough excuse. It might be true, but I doubt she's the only planeswalker to ever visit there, so why should she (rather than any other) get a card in the set? Heck, she doesn't even feel like a moonfolk to me. Moonfolk are flying creatures that bounce lands. None of her abilities have anything to do with flying, and none of them have to do with bouncing lands. And, of course, none of them fit in Innistrad. Couldn't she at least have a plus ability that granted flying until EOT to your team?
tl;dr -- I like the idea of planeswalker shoutbacks, but only when appropriate. I feel Tamiyo misses the mark.
1. I love Misthollow Griffin and think it's one of the best designs in this set. I also don't get why you're worried about it, since it can only bring itself back from exile. I get that you don't want players to start getting used to exiled things coming back, but you've done it already and the griffin is so limited and what it does I think it has every right to exist.
I'd say Runic Repetition is a far bigger offender in this case, and you didn't mention or talk about it when you were going over Innistrad cards 1by1.
2. I like Planeswalkers from other sets, please do it. Tamiyo is cool and I hope we see more 'walkers like her.
3.
You see, with most undying creatures you want them to die because they come back stronger, but Treacherous Pit-Dweller is the undying card where undying is a drawback, not an upside mechanic. I don't like to do too many of these kinds of cards but one or two a set is usually fine.
Fine? It's not fine, it's awesome! Yeah there shouldn't be too many of this type of cards, but Treacherous Pit-Dweller is amazing design, I can't believe you are not more excited/have not more to say about this card.
4. Zealous Strike baffles me. I have no qualms with strictly-better version of card getting printed, but Skillful Lunge is from Dark Ascension, Just one set ago! I know they won't ever get drafted together, but I wish Zealous strike was at least a little bit different..
Okay, here is the clincher. I've been waiting to say this.
The "cam girl" this was inspired by was just a girl from a social networking website, Stickam. Her name was TinyTerror and she was just a regular girl who was on her webcam, totally unrelated to any type of adult content.
I hope you all feel really smart now.
This is like someone coming into class with a bloody nose and everyone's like "Jeez what happened to you" and they're like "I ran into a wall" and everyone laughs at them for being an idiot but then at the end of the class they say "HAHA JUST KIDDING I PUNCHED MYSELF IN THE FACE!!!!!! TALK ABOUT OWNED HAHAHAHAHA"
I really enjoy imagining this from Kevin's perspective. Because in Kevin's world, Rosewater actually reads everything he types. Mark is sitting there right now, reading this, and thinking "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled. . ." Or some such. He chuckles low, then clicks on "The Best Of KEVINSET" and says "Yes, this'll do just fine. A busty lady with banding who deals direct damage to Zones!? Why this will be the star of my next set, and no one will ever believe you Kevin." Then he closes his Macbook, so his servant may move it out of the way, while another servant puts a Fetal Richard Garfield Clone lathered in Steak Sauce in front of him. Then Mark Feasts.
Sorin walked into the chamber where his newly wed bride, Vampy, awaited. A beam of moonlight illuminated his brilliant silver hair as he strode with confidence towards the bed. His shirtless body showcased his powerful abdominal muscles and he was wearing jeans with holes in the knees.
LOVEthis article. Even if I disagreed, I always enjoy hearing what MaRo has to say on individual designs.
All this is a long way of saying that I have mixed feelings about this card. I feel it's awesome that R&D as a group isn't defined by the thoughts and opinions of any one person. It allows us to create the game in a way that one single visionary never could, but it does mean there are cards like this that make me personally twitch a little. (My mantra for this card is "At least it's not Hornet Sting.")
I'm glad to see Rosewater feels the same way I do about Misthollow Griffin. The problem with the card is that exile effects are supposed to have an advantage over regular destroy effects because nothing interacts with the exile zone on both a flavorful and mechanical level. If you kill a Baneslayer Angel, a necomrancer can make it Rise From the Grave. But if you exile the angel (Whether that means imprisoning it, cleansing it, or letting it become a farmer hippie), it ain't coming back. Creatures that are exiled don't come back from the dead, spells that are exiled cannot be recalled by a mage, and artifacts that are exiled can't be rebuilt.
I was thinking about how, in the Pokemon TCG, I noticed that the newest version of the rules has a zone similar to "removed from the game"/exile. However, despite the zone's novelty, there are already cards that interact with it, rendering it essentially a harder to reach discard pile (graveyard).
So please, MaRo, keep fighting the good fight.
A lot of that, though, is going to depend on how Tamiyo is received. If players like having a Planeswalker clearly from a plane of Magic's past, perhaps we'll do more. I know I'd like to see more Planeswalkers who feel like they come from somewhere else.
I love seeing Tamiyo. Magic is a game that's awesome due to its endless possibilities, and it evokes a sense of wonder seeing a moonfolk scholar from Kamigawa among devils, vampires, ghosts, and crazy villagers.
Mechanically, the interesting thing about it is that it does something designers love to do. It takes a mechanic and finds a way to invert how it normally works. You see, with most undying creatures you want them to die because they come back stronger, but Treacherous Pit-Dweller is the undying card where undying is a drawback, not an upside mechanic. I don't like to do too many of these kinds of cards but one or two a set is usually fine.
I personally love this kind of card. Treacherous Pit-Dweller is probably my favorite card in the set. The more of this type of card, the more weird interactions a set can have outside of it. Simple is good, yes, but at Rare or Mythic, I want to see more Treacherous Pit-Dweller s or Dead-Eye Navigator s.
I made the original punisher cards in Odyssey because I was trying to find different ways to give red the feeling of chaos. I liked the idea that these were spells that allowed red to stretch what it could do (usually one of the punisher cards in Odyssey block did something out of color pie for red) but didn't allow it the control to what was going to happen.
The punisher cards went over very well. So much so that we've pulled them out from time to time. Vexing Devil has not bucked this trend and initial response to Vexing Devil has been very strong.
The problem with the Odyssey Red punisher cards (And the Black Time Spiral ones), and the reason why people have been so positive about Vexing Devil , is that the Devil fixed one of the inherent problems of the original punishers. Both effects of Vexing Devil are something you want at any time in a Red Deck Wins build; you always want to deal damage to the face, either through burn spells or through hyper-efficient creatures. Contrast with Dash Hopes , where most people will just let you counter the spell unless it's one you need to counter. The only other punisher in Red that feels even decent is Browbeat , because at least drawing cards is something that can give more damage in a traditional RDW build (Although Browbeat is still bad).
Ironically, the best punisher effects in the game are Blue, since they allow you to rig the choices. Fact or Fiction , Intuition , and Gifts Ungiven are easily the best punisher spells in the game. Keep this in mind when making new punishers, either as inspirations or as warnings.
Personally, I love punishers, so I hope more of them turn out to be good in the future. They allow a lot more interaction than most other spells, and it's fun to try and influence an opponent's choice if it's a hard one.
1. I love Misthollow Griffin and think it's one of the best designs in this set. I also don't get why you're worried about it, since it can only bring itself back from exile. I get that you don't want players to start getting used to exiled things coming back, but you've done it already and the griffin is so limited and what it does I think it has every right to exist.
I'd say Runic Repetition is a far bigger offender in this case, and you didn't mention or talk about it when you were going over Innistrad cards 1by1.
I also dislike Runic Repetition, but I feel that Misthollow Griffin is still treading on sacred ground. While I like the simplicity of its ability, it feels like it was just made because it could be made.
3. Fine? It's not fine, it's awesome! Yeah there shouldn't be too many of this type of cards, but Treacherous Pit-Dweller is amazing design, I can't believe you are not more excited/have not more to say about this card.
Agreed, so much. We need more Pit-Dwellers in Magic.
On the topic of Taimyo: I feel that the core concept is good, and I for one am glad to see a planeswalker "out of place." Some of the others are saying that she doesn't make sense here, but she doesn't have to. Planeswalkers are beings of incredible might and questionable (less questionable in poor Sarkhan's case) sanity; for all we know, she went to Innistrad because TAIMYO HATE HERONS KILL THEM DEAD.
But with that said, I think the swing-and-a-miss here was making her from Kamigawa.
Kamigawa actually holds a special place in my heart; for all that the set was a little lackluster, I feel like there was a lot of the world that was interesting. It and Rabiah the Infinite would probably be the two worlds that, now that Ravnica's coming back and Mirrodin already has, I'd most like to see Magic return to. But it seems that most people don't agree with me. Of course, what are you going to do? Not many planes have truly unique races (though the flamekin planeswalker posted about above is a fantastic idea; in fact, Tibalt actually makes more sense to me as a flamekin than a devil!) and Kamigawa is one of the few. If you want a "stranger," it basically needs to be from one of those places because even someone like Nissa would fit right into Innistrad. (I know there aren't any elves, but elves aren't different enough to make her stand out in my opinion.) But then, we've only been to so many of these.
If you're doing a blue planeswalker and trying to think out of the box race-wise, moonfolk is about your only choice. (Cephalids and Rootwater-style merfolk are too Dominarian.) But then again? Flamekin Tibalt. So my personal solution would have been to make Taimyo an Innistradian 'walker (Maybe a geist, to go with her Dungeon Geists -esque cost and ability? Vorthoses of the world: Can that happen?) and make Tibalt a Flamekin. But hey, I don't work for you.
You're the straightest shooter I know on these boards. You don't mince words about your opinions, and I respect that about you. The whole fiasco you described in the last State of the CO Forum was particularly enlightening (and kind of disappointing with regards to how they see us).
Ah, Tsuyo. When your post isn't one sentence long full of asterisks, you have much wisdom to share with us .
From the IRC:
(19:52) RuinsFate: You know, I was gonna agree with something PalOn said... but I think I'm just gonna through my lot in with tsuyo's sudden train-wreck grade interjection.
(01:45) Nausicaa: yes your rage is a righteous rage :D (01:45) Nausicaa: righteous rage of torpedo
When making Zealous Strike was the design team aware that it was making a card obsolete that appeared in Dark Ascension (Skillful Lunge)? Were one of these two cards changed in development in a way that led to this? Obviously making cards strictly better than other cards happens from time to time, especially given the power level of very old cards, but to do it one set later feels more like an oversight.
I was also hoping for Maro to at least mention this - also, to expand, having Moment of Heroism, Skillful Lunge, and Zealous Strike all in different sets of the same block feels a little weird. Sure, maybe Limited wants these types of effects in those amounts, but do they have to be so similar? Especially with one being strictly better than another?
Two things: 1) Tamiyo is fine as a design and fine in terms of backstory. Her problem is the same problem Tibalt has: they're no-names. Since when are plot-irrelevant 'walkers made into cards? The closest to that that you've ever done before is Nissa, and I am not at all happy to see you fall further down this slope. If you're going to bring a 'walker from Kamigawa into the game, make her a critical part of the lore that the block centers around, so that when she shows up, it's exciting fulfillment of expectation instead of "Oh, planeswalker #5 in the block. Okay."
2) Thatcher Revolt is stupid. Having played against it repeatedly now, I can definitively say that nearly all the stuff it interacts with leads to unfun, noninteractive game states. Having a limited format center around ETB effects and board stalls was the worst idea you guys ever had, and Thatcher Revolt is the apotheosis of that. I actually hate this limited format more than Shadowmoor, which is saying something.
EDIT: (Actually, just thought of something - both this format and Shadowmoor share a critical flaw. They both take a central concept of deckbuilding and make it irrelevant. In SHA it was color, and in AVR it's curve, but in both cases you're punishing people for conservancy by decreasing the amount of focus a deck needs to be effective. ISD and ROE, both excellent formats, did exactly the opposite.)
1) For everyone saying Tamiyo doesn't have a reason for being on Innistrad: if you read up on her flavor, either on the website or in the Fatpack guide, it explains that she's there because she's interested in the ways that Innistrad's moon affects the plane (werewolf transformations, for example). To be fair, they could have done a better job at presenting this, but they did provide us with an explanation.
2)As for planeswalkers from old planes: I think it's a great idea, especially for less popular planes that we might not get to revisit. I'll second the idea for a Lorwyn Flamekin planeswalker. Ooh, or maybe a Treefolk! Or even a changeling, although you might have to do something similar to Tibalt, since they're not especially intelligent...
3)I'm honestly not concerned by Misthollow Griffin or Runic Repetition. The Griffin only gets itself back, and Runic Repetition only deals with a small subset of cards. Neither seems particularly degenerate, and as one-offs, both excite me. I play Yu-Gi-Oh, where exile (banishment) really is a second graveyard. Magic is a long, long, way from that, and I don't see it getting close anytime soon.
4)This is still one of the best Making Magic titles ever.
