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1 year ago ::
May 07, 2012 - 6:07AM
#21
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Makes sense to me!
When making Zealous Strike was the design team aware that it was making a card obsolete that appeared in Dark Ascension (Skillful Lunge)? Were one of these two cards changed in development in a way that led to this? Obviously making cards strictly better than other cards happens from time to time, especially given the power level of very old cards, but to do it one set later feels more like an oversight.
I was also interested in hearing about this. I'd guess that if they did it for any specific reason it would have been mentioned, so it was a screw-up on their part.
They do this all the time. Azure Drake  versus Amphin Cutthroat  . Magic is more interesting if things are costed differently in environments. Wizards already stated somewhere that while being only 1 set apart is unfortunate, because they're not in the same limited environment they were okay with it.
Really? That's kind of underwhelming - a 4/4 for   would be great, but if it's conditioned on the survival of another creature it's barely on-par - and it's not how I read it. Wouldn't each Trusted Forcemage  give +2/+2 to itself and the other, making them 6/6 creatures? That looks much better to me.
It's good enough for Limited which is what MaRo is talking about.
2) Thatcher Revolt is stupid. Having played against it repeatedly now, I can definitively say that nearly all the stuff it interacts with leads to unfun, noninteractive game states. Having a limited format center around ETB effects and board stalls was the worst idea you guys ever had, and Thatcher Revolt is the apotheosis of that. I actually hate this limited format more than Shadowmoor, which is saying something.
Zendikar likes to say hi. At least AVR is better than that.
1. I love Misthollow Griffin  and think it's one of the best designs in this set. I also don't get why you're worried about it, since it can only bring itself back from exile. I get that you don't want players to start getting used to exiled things coming back, but you've done it already and the griffin is so limited and what it does I think it has every right to exist.
Food Chain  . There are reasons to worry about even a card like this.
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1 year ago ::
May 07, 2012 - 7:20AM
#22
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..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" /> Food Chain . There are reasons to worry about even a card like this. [/quote] The reason isnt the gryphon its the food chain. Food chain is a potential degenerate mana generator and has shown up in the past in such a way. Tibalt bothers me because not random looting wouldnt be overpowered and also because there isnt a need to make a 2 mana planeswalker. Planeswalkers are supposed to feel pretty epic, and even at 3 it takes work to say that. A 2 mana dragon would be pretty weak to and it just feels like it subverts the whole concept of a planeswalker. One of my biggest issue is planeswalkers really dont make sense flavorfully. Why does some ability grant loyalty and others lose it? And why at so many numbers? Its all just mechanics. No flavor.
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1 year ago ::
May 07, 2012 - 8:20AM
#23
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Date Joined:
Jan 13, 2008
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Re: Tamiyo, the Moon Sage 
Sure, I get that planeswalkers are supposed to appear out of place, but is that supposed to apply mechanically as well as flavorfully? For example, when Sorin Markov  visited Zendikar, he synergized with the vampires there even though that wasn't his native plane. Tamiyo doesn't seem to have any sort of mechanical tie to either Kamigawa or Innistrad; she could just as easily have been a generic blue planeswalker. I also agree with CFL's point about her flavor not having any drama because there's no story to it. Now that I think about it, though, Ajani Vengeant  doesn't have any direct mechanical ties to Naya, either. Re: The Exile ZoneConsidering that red and black like to use the exile zone for stuff like Pillar of Flame  and Extirpate  , I think it's weird to say that exile represents white's commitment to non-lethal force. Plus, I'm pretty sure Undead Slayer  and Angel of Glory's Rise  aren't sending the zombies they exile off to become farmers or whatever. Personally, I think white's removal is more closely captures that non-lethal flavor when it sends creatures to the library, such as with Excommunicate  and Condemn  .
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1 year ago ::
May 07, 2012 - 10:31AM
#24
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Date Joined:
Oct 17, 2010
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On Misthallow Griffin-
It's blue. Again. With the crazy power breaking game rules thing.
That said I also feel that this is the appropriate place for it. If blue is meant to represent thoughts, well then, ideas never really go away. So OK. But I agree; this is an area to tread lightly.
From the Article:
'The number one comment with Tamiyo I've received is, "She doesn't feel like she belongs in this block." My response is that what people are really saying is, "She doesn't seem to fit in this world." My response to this is, "Exactly. That's the point." '
Right.
Personally, I'm totally good with a planeswalker from other planes showing up. My issue is that when Tamiyo was introduced, it was revealed that she'd been there the whole time. No mention of her anywhere else.
Don't you think that an alien being showing up to do reasearch with an astronomer in a plane where the moon is critical might merit some discussion? Someone might've mentioned it, flavor text, something? For a set that is supposed to emphasize the flavor, hinting at a critical break in that flavor should have been done, because in a world where werewolves and vampires are the norm, people will talk about the weird stuff. Namely; moon people.
Tibalt being there isn't jarring because he's a devil and devils are all over Innistrad. Tamiyo has every right to appear but to insist that she's been there the whole time was a huge mistake. Having her be drawn to the plane after Avacyn was released (which because of hocus-pocus or Helvault destruction, has caused the moon to do something awesome) would have been perfect!
Instead, you're trying to shoot someone in act 3, insisting the gun has been there the whole time, when it really hasn't appeared at all.
So by all means, do more travelling Planeswalkers. But either justify them appropriately or don't even bother and leave it at: they go where they want and you never know who's going to show up.
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1 year ago ::
May 07, 2012 - 11:45AM
#25
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Date Joined:
May 17, 2009
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I would also like to join with the others in saying that Planeswalkers from previous sets are a very cool idea, but Tamiyo just feels out of place in a bad way. You say that they should feel out of place, but I'm not so sure you're correct. Sure, they look different and all that, but Lilliana makes perfect sense in this world, while Tamiyo just seems randomly thrown in. Yeah, moon stuff blah blah, but that's not all that easy to figure out from the card, and a throwaway line about it on Lunar Mystic is probably not enough for most people to make the connection; I guess just make sure they fit with the plot better if you are going to have them, instead of Planeswalkers just making a cameo appearance.
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1 year ago ::
May 07, 2012 - 12:04PM
#26
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Date Joined:
Jan 11, 2010
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It seems to me like it would suit White better to boost power or toughness, but not both - simply making stuff 'big' seems very Green. On that note, I like Skillful Lunge  better than Zealous Strike  ; especially when it comes to granting first strike, granting toughness as well seems inelegant. But then, I've always thought Guided Strike  was the epitome of White combat tricks. As for Tamiyo seeming 'out-of-place', I agree that that's the point of planeswalkers - the issue is less that she seems out-of-place conceptually, though, and more that she feels out-of-place on too many different levels. As others have mentioned she seems isolated mechanically, and it's also worth noting that she feels out-of-place in continuity - with no intention of returning to Kamigawa anytime soon (had she been a Ravnican it would be easier to buy), she just doesn't seem to have a 'place' at any level. Don't get me wrong, I love that you're not restricting Planeswalkers to 'making sense' within the story or mechanics of the block in which they appear, but I can absolutely see why the audience is seeing her as just a random addition. The next time you try it - and I hope you do - just give us some reason to buy-in. EDIT: Thinking back, the immediate justification for Tamiyo is "because it's awesome" - and I know I'm simply not Timmy enough to grasp that. I hope it goes over well for the players it was designed for, but I think your audience simply expects the few Planeswalkers it gets to strike a broader appeal, if possible. On the subject of Wildwood Geist  , I'll admit that I didn't catch the point; but I suspect I would've pretty quickly in-practice. I think the effect would've communicated the point better if it didn't boost toughness as well, but it also would've felt less Green - but then, normally Green's 'attack with me' signal is Trample. I'm not sure I'm in love with the idea of Green getting attack-time-only boosts, and the fact that I don't think this version portrays it well seems indicative of that...
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1 year ago ::
May 07, 2012 - 3:24PM
#27
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Regarding Misthollow Griffin :I, too, dislike cards that use the exile zone as a "second graveyard". However, I feel it's fine on cards like this. Here, it's used to make the card feel mythic; this is the exact opposite of condoning the behavior. The card is saying "You're not supposed to be able to do this, but this is a mythic rare, so it allows it." It only gets itself back, which makes it a mythic rare version of Reassembling Skeleton  rather than a Pull from Eternity  . I'm fine with it. Regarding Tamiyo, the Moon Sage :I love that Tamiyo feels out of place, both flavorfully and mechanically. That's the essence of what a planeswalker is: the perpetual outsider. Belonging to no singular world, a planeswalker doesn't fit in at any of them. They gave her a reason to be there, which is more than I even feel is necessary. Are people forgetting the first five planeswalker cards? None of them had any business being in Lorwyn at all, and that's what made them so awesome. If every planeswalker in a block has to be tied to the story, then they've got two choices: reduce the number of planeswalkers in each block, or make the story convoluted, and likely edge out the locals. Neither of these is too appealing. By having the option to include planeswalkers that are just there, they take a third option. Furthermore, by having planeswalkers not tied to the block's mechanics, there are still cards that appeal to those people who don't enjoy those mechanics. Not every non-planeswalker card has to care about the block's mechanics, so why should that restriction be placed on planeswalkers? Regarding Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded  :I feel that they should never have printed a two-mana planeswalker. As has already been said in this thread, planeswalkers are supposed to be epic. After all you, as the player of the game, are a planeswalker. The planeswalker cards are supposed to strive to feel like they're your equals. Reducing Tibalt's power level just to make him fit into a cost you arbitrarily decided needed to be filled destroys that illusion.
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1 year ago ::
May 07, 2012 - 4:16PM
#28
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Date Joined:
Mar 19, 2007
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As far as planeswalkers from other sets go, I'm fine with shoutbacks to older sets, as long as the planeswalker involved seems like he/she has a reason to belong in the world (and preferably, his/her abilities synergize some with that world). For instance, I think Tamiyo makes a lot of sense...in Zendikar.
Flavor. I didn't catch it right away, but with all the subtle "warship the moon" hints, she makes sense, and I actually really enjoyed reading about her. It was a very subtle surprise, and it made me smile inside.
Moonfolk are flying creatures that bounce lands. None of her abilities have anything to do with flying, and none of them have to do with bouncing lands. And, of course, none of them fit in Innistrad. Couldn't she at least have a plus ability that granted flying until EOT to your team?
Very valid points.
Her problem is [she is a] no-name. Since when are plot-irrelevant 'walkers made into cards? ... If you're going to bring a 'walker from Kamigawa into the game, make her a critical part of the lore that the block centers around, so that when she shows up, it's exciting fulfillment of expectation instead of "Oh, planeswalker #5 in the block. Okay."
Excellent point. I hadn't thought about this until you mention it, but giving her some card quotes, or a minor role in the Hellvault situation (maybe she knew Avacyn was in there) would have been a perfect opportunity.
For that matter, I would have liked to see her "fixing" the werewolves, rather than an angel. (see the art on Blessings of Nature  ) That would have made more sense.
So yah, just a subtle mention please? 
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1 year ago ::
May 07, 2012 - 5:46PM
#29
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Date Joined:
Apr 14, 2012
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At first, I thought Tamiyo was pretty cool flavorfully. Not so much now. I have no qualms about her being from somewhere else. Thats one of the cool parts. the problem is she just seems like a spin off of jace, just made into a moonfolk. A traveler trying to understand the secrets of the Multiverse. most people would respond on "jeopardy", Who is Jace? Thats the problem, all blue walkers seem alike.
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1 year ago ::
May 07, 2012 - 5:50PM
#30
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"These little details might sound silly, but it's actually key to the game's wellbeing. The color pie is vital to Magic's health, so one of the things we must always be vigilant about is ways to make sure each color has clear definition, even when two colors do similar things."
Can someone at Wizards please explain exactly what they are doing to black then? I have played black decks since my first deck when Beta was launched, and I feel like the majority of core black concepts have been given out to other colors at this point.. Spell based mana acceleration (ex: Dark Ritual) has been given to red, targeted creature removal has been given to white for the most part, even reanimation has been creeping over to white, and there aren't even that many self-damaging or "sacrifice a ~something~: do something cool" effects any more. It seems like all we have left from the old days is discard effects, and most of the available ones in standard are highly conditional and/or high cost, plus tend to be 1-for-1 which reduces the appeal to using them over say, a creature. >.>;;
If the color pie is indeed so vitally important to the game, then please do something to solidify black's position within it. I'm not asking for a return to the glory days, just somewhere that it's as easy to explain black's role to a new player as the other 4 colors.
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