I don't understand how you don't get how ponder can help a deck with a few miracles. It lets you choose how the next three cards will be drawn and even gives you one of them immediately. Scenario: turn one island, ponder... whoops looks like I will draw Temporial Mastery next turn... Instead I will draw it on turn three when I can cast it. /end
Like One with Nothing can help with a Hellbent deck. You can find it useful. However, there is much better to do with that slot.
How does that not work with Miracles?!? In a deck with no more than 8 Miracles at any given time Ponder can be extremely helpful to time your miracles. It is HORRIBLE in a deck that has more than that as you run the risk of hitting miltiples durning the ponder but I would rather ponder and push a miracle back a turn to be able to cast it than have an extremely expensive card I could not cast on the draw.
The benefit of pushing back the miracle is minimal.
[uote]I have had more than a few games where Mana Leak ended up being a dead card late game. It has happened a little less due to the amount of aggression needed to make a competative deck in standard today but it has still happened quite a bit at FNM.
If your opponent has three useless lands on the field, you've already won. Even then, you can counter stuff like Red Sun's Zenith and you can have multiple copies in hand. I countered a Sun Titan with three Mana Leaks back in Zendikar Standard.
One with nothing it a mute point as it is not Standard. Argueing about it is pointless as it has absolutely no effect on the current game.
It's an analogy to illustrate the point. Since we're talking about deck construction in general, the format is irrelevant.
I don't know Mr. Indigo. I do not care about him personally. This was not a joke thread. This thread was him expressing his opinion about something he did not like. You might have taken it as a joke but I did not. This thread did not show his rationality either. If he was rational he would be able to see both sides of the arguement and explain his side in a way that both solidified his and did not offend the other. I do not even have a clue as to what kind of deck he is basing his assumptions on. Like I said in a deck with a few Miracles CAN benifit from Ponder. That does not mean it will. He on the other hand is talking about it like Ponder does absolutely nothing useful.
The caps and the satirical OP should have tipped you off. It is something he really thinks, but the post was meant to be funny at the same time.
My question is why not run library manipulation?
For the same reason that you wouldn't run Lost in the Mist even it there wasn't any other counterspell in the format : it sucks in most decks.
If I am running blue I want to manipulate my deck and others to get where I want to be to win. Now running a deck that does not draw and top decks all the time I would be more inclined to just stick to top decking miracles instead. Mono Red is one of those that would benifit more from it than anything. Yet again you have not provided an answer to other solutions to library manipulation.
If I'm running blue, I want to win through card advantage and quality (assuming I'm playing control). Library manipulation is one way. Card draw, CA engines and other cards can do better.
In my mind Ponder is a decent choice to help curb your deck from drawing Miracles too soon and it can even get you some land or spell you might need next turn more than the Miracle. Mind you I would splash Miracles like I splash colors into a deck so for me that control is key to making the deck work right.
If you're putting cards in your deck to make your miracles work, you're working against yourself. A good miracle should work without any support card. Bonfire of the Damned can be hardcast, but its miracle is bonkers. Terminus is passable hardcasted, but is really good in miracle. If your card is dead if it hits your hand, it's not good enough.
There is benefits to play Ponder in a miracle deck, but then, you don't see people playing bad cards just because there isn't anything else. There is no real blue card draw right now in Standard. Do people play Divination ?
Yeah... Until next game, where it'll be right back.
Seriously, there's no way to deal with Rancor in any format. It should be banned, except Gleemax is a lobbyist for the Rancor party, so that'll never happen.
You can't ban rancor, it just returns to your deck.
You might want to actually talk to the Flavor & Storyline Board people... since, you know, our whole reason for playing Magic is the flavor. I'm willing to bet you'll get a lot more interest there than in General.
Indeed, both posters down there would be thrilled.
When talks about banning Jace first started, I was thinking that I would see him banned come June 20th. But as I think more about it, I don't really think that Jace is the problem anymore. Sure his power level leaves very little to the imagination (opening Jace is like opening a refrigerator box with a naked girl on the inside), and sure his price does have a strong impact on what players choose to play (playing Jace is like being intimate with a woman and she doesn't charge you in the morning), but it is not the source of all the problems in Standard.
How do people think saving room to print more abilities on cards is dumbing down the game?
Do you really think, say, Akroma would ever be printed if she said, "Akroma can block by creatures with this ability and cannot be blocked by creatures without this ability. If a creature without this ability would deal combat damage by Akroma would be destroyed, prevent all combat damage that creature would deal to Akroma this combat. Attacking does not cause Akroma to tap. If Akroma is blocked and deals lethal damage, it deals the remainder of its damage to the defending player. Akroma may attack and use abilities that require tapping in the casting cost the turn it enters the battlefield. Akroma cannot be damaged, enchanted, equipped, blocked or targeted by black or red sources" rather than her "dumbed down" wording she has? No freaking way. Keywording and shorthand allows them to make complicated cards easy to play with, allowing them to be printed in the first place.
1. cast frankie peanuts 2. ask opponent "will you concede the game this turn"? if they say yes, you win; if they say no, play a staying power 3. subsequently ask "will you attack this turn"? and "will you cast a spell this turn"? (using a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir for the second question if necessary) to ensure they can't disrupt the combo 4. donate them a platinum angel 5. play a mox lotus and braingeyser them for every card in their library. play an opalescence and donate them a glorious anthem and a blacker lotus , then play enchanted evening . play and activate a mindslaver and then donate them a fastbond and the mox lotus (returning one of the donates to your hand with eternal witness or whatever) 6. during their turn, play every permanent in their hand (playing lands with fastbond) then (as yourself) cast mirrorweave on the blacker lotus, so every permanent becomes a copy of it. proceed to tear up every card they control, and hopefully do it before they notice that they aren't bound by staying power's ability anymore and can concede
Dark Ritual being overpowered is determined more by what is done with it than the card itself.
True, but the fact that it enables so many ridiculous things is pretty telling. It's like, sure I can use a shotgun as a bludgeoning instrument, but that doesn't make it not a shotgun.
Shortly before Serra died, she transferred her spark into an angel whose full name was Asha Avacyn Bolas. Her dragon father groomed her for her positions in Alara and Innistrad, and she's also been getting help from her uncle Ugin in the form of Urza, who was resurrected as Marit Lage to be the avatar as which she projects herself into material realms. Grieslbrand is a split personality who sometimes wanders the planes disguised as a human woman named Liliana Vess.
Everyone's life would be easier if players would, instead of coming to the 'net for help with a deck, just netdeck and be done with it. And I'm not talking about some Top 8 lists, for the Casualists, too, can benefit from netdecking. I've netdecked plenty of decks from the Casual Play forums from users such as Mown, Raedien, Floopfoot, and a few others. I snatched straight the heck out of my web browser. Yes, people, your original idea fell victim to a savage netdecker. You have been assimiliated.
Suppose I wanted a Zombie deck. Why on earth would I spend time searching Gatherer for a decent list of Zombie cards when Raedien already did it for me? Taking time to be creative or waiting on people on the forums to tell you why your deck sucks or 'go to Casual forums' is a disasterous waste of time (to me).
That being said, Magic was ruined back in Alpha when they added all that rules and cards [Debutantes avert your eyes]. My friends and I still like playing it the "pure" way (Basically we go into the woods and hit eachother with wiffle bats while shouting made up obscenities. You know, the way Garfield wanted it to be played).
Don't worry about it. I've come up with a list of changes to fix EDH.
-First off, there's no commander. -The minimum deck size is 60 cards, and each deck can have up to four of each card, save basic lands and relentless rats. Also decks have no color identity. -Starting life total is 20.
Here's a clever play you can try yourself: -Convince friend to run relentless rats.dec in legacy tournament -Get a deck with lots of mill, yixlid jailer, and humility -Drop humility and jailer, wait for him to dump his hand, mill him out -All his rats now have no abilities. Call a judge because he's playing an illegal deck with more than 4 of a single card. -Get him/her banned from competitive magic play
L, is for the leather gloves you weaaaar. O, is for the organs that guy could spaaaare. V, is very very, extraordinay. E, is for every vagrant i butchered in a wine cellar befooooore.
The outer layer of the Magic: the Gathering box, the carton, or crust, is fairly thin and light, and contains largely aluminosilcates.
Within that lies the middle layer, consisting of the familiar booster pack. Although solid, the booster packs' high temperatures allow them to acutally move around within the booster box. This flow, sometimes called convection, is cited by frustrated box mappers as one of WOTC's most genious uses of thermodynamics since the Ravnica block.
No one knows what lies at the core of the booster box, but scientists theorize that it must be especially dense in order to make up for the large amount of fluff distributed amongst the booster packs.
I imagine [Ajani 3's] second ability involves him hurling the creature at your opponent Brion Stoutarm style, then the guy is just like "Okay, that may have worked, but don't- GOD DAMN IT!" as he does it again because cats don't give a **** :33.
Its like that one time Elves broke out in a field of Jund. Elves became a resurgent hit, then died off again once Jund adapted to the rest of the field of G/W that it required mass removal that inherently pooped on Elves too.
Submit to the menace. Delver can, and will blot out the sun.
"I remember my days as a youth at Tolarian Academy ." "Wow, small multiverse, I actually went there too." "WAIT, DON'T- Well ****, there's $200,000 in student loans well spent."
And flavor goes out the window when you cast a second copy of a planeswalker right after the first one dies, so...
"Hey Nissa, I need a favor." "You just asked me for a 'favor' like thirty seconds ago, and it turned out to be having Sarkhan Transmogrify my only follower into a dragon like 5 times -which dickery aside also violates some laws of causality - and then you let me get beaten over the head by that hedron crab." "...I'll give you " "...Well all right then."
GM, I don't think Dill is better than you. I KNOW it. Even if he wakes up every morning, clubs a baby seal, steals all the TV remotes from within a block's radius of his house and then robs hungry orphans of their food he'd be better than you, for the simple reason that he learns from his mistakes.
What would they have to fight about? Like, all I can think of now is Gideon going "Hey, long-ears! I'm gathering a group of 'Walkers together to fight some tentacle monsters.....you want in?" and Tamiyo going "Ew! Hentai no bakka Gideon-desu desu!" and flying away.
I open 4 packs just to be on the safe side. Not only do I get more cards than everyone else, but I also get to spend the rest of the night off. Win Win.
MaRo has a thing for people opening boosters with bad cards. But since he can only get so many bad cards printed in each set, he has found a devious way of getting more bad cards into circulation: He makes entire print sheets with just bad rares, then puts them onto the assembly line. He proceeds to wring his hands and twirl his evil mustache that he grew for twirling purposes as a lightning bolt strikes in the background. Afterwards, he goes to make sure that the good cards are only opened by everyone's friends, and that we all only get to open bad cards. He does this by memorising each booster, than switching them around accordingly. Whenever someone complains about a card, he immediately jumps out from behind a chair to yell "WELL, IT'S NOT FOR YOU!" before merging back into the shadows in order to devise new ways in which he can screw over players, then claim that he has valid reasons for doing so.
Mark Rosewater is sitting in a seemingly innocuous cable TV van, outside of Bankaimastery's house. Sitting nearby are two hardened criminal hackers, fresh out of prison, and filled with resentment at their lack of physical fitness. "Have you managed to hack his brainwaves yet? The set deadline's coming up fast." "We're almost through. It should be coming up on the screen any second." The hacker presses a button, and Kevin's thoughts flash onto the screen. Mark and the hackers stare in amazement at the sheer beauty, the elegance, and the raw truth of what they see. It's like the ending to 2001: A Space Odyssey. Brilliant light shines across the screen, the truth of existence is made clear to them, and they despair at their own foolishness, their own ignorance, their own inadequacy. And then they steal his ideas. As they return back to R&D, Mark sneers at a haggard old man chained to a cast-iron sphere. The man looks up from his laborious task of breaking rocks in the dungeon of Wizards of the Coast headquarters, and asks a question: "Kevin, my greatest student. He - he's all right, isn't he? You didn't hurt him?" Mark deals him a weighty blow with his boot. "Know your place, Richard. Get back to work."
I'm only opposed to it because it bears so little relation to how people actually play the game. The example of Miracles is actually a much better one then the Clone example I was trying to use.
From the game's perspective, the card can move instantly from face down in the library to revealed in the hand and that's fine for the rules. But in real life, we can't actually do that, so the card spends a good bit of time in locations that are neither where that player's library is nor where that player's hand is. And that's fine for real life. What I don't want is the disconnect to be explicitly codified. Along the lines of
183664.697 A game of Magic as laid out by these rules exists only as a pure Platonic ideal, utterly unrealizable by fallible mortals limited by the confines of physicality and the ravages of evil and sin.
183664.698 The cake is a lie, too.
I know it's true, but I don't want the rules to actually straight-up tell me that.
Pfft this cant be serious can it? If it is please delete your account OP. Its not even close to ban worthy, considering what JTMS and stoneforge had to accomplish to get banned i see the WotC selling magic to aquire Pokemon before that ever happens.
I'm trying to imagine sorin markov as a gym leader in one of those pokemon games which you have to beat him to get his badge... somehow I imagine that he would stab you in the chest with his sword before giving you the badge, even if you beat his pokemon....
Personally, I'd be fine with tea time but then I'm not gonna waste the mana summoning Emrakul, the Aeons Torn . He always takes all the sugar, drinks the whole pot of Earl Grey and doesn't even say thank you. SO. RUDE.
Break the Card is a regular thread in the Cards and Combo Forum. Quite simply, the participants are given a Johnnystatic card (e.g. Xenograft ) and are asked to build a deck around it. The winner and honorable mentions are sigged below. Get brewing!
This week's Break the Card was based around Xenograft . Thread : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27681049/Break_the_card_:_Xenograft?pg=1
Winner : Axterix with his Vampdrazi deck. Finalist : Vektor480 with his Ally/Golem/Plant deck. Honorable mentions : Zammm for the Turntimber Ranger combo and TinGorilla for suggesting Sarkhan the Mad .
Here's the link to the Mindlock Orb contest : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27697565/Break_the_Card_:_Mindlock_Orb?sdb=1&pg=last#497536269
Here's the link to Break the Card : Bludgeon Brawl : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27715169/Break_the_Card_:_Bludgeon_Brawl?sdb=1&pg=last#498208797
Winner : Vektor and his Grab the World deck. Finalist : Crandor with his Awesome Aliteration deck. Honorable mentions : RP Jesus with his Wat deck and Zix200 with his Signet Renewal deck.
This week was Followed Footsteps : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27748677/Break_the_Card_:_Followed_Footsteps?pg=1
Winner : Tevish_Szat with his Exponential Growth deck. Honorable mentions : Zix with his Carbon Copies deck and Escef with his Fungus of Speed and Time deck.
This week's card was Jace's Archivist : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28063377/Break_the_Card_:_Jaces_Archivist.
Finalists : Jentaru with his "Consecration of the Draw" deck and HereticSmitty with his "ADHD: The deck" deck. Winner : JaxsonBateman with his "The Archives Are Endless!" deck.
Yes. I generally play Ponder when it's available. I won't be playing it for the purpose of setting up Miracle cards, though. Being that Terminus is okay to play for either it's casting cost or Miracle cost, one really doesn't need to rely on Ponder to make it happen.
Thunderous Wrath , though, is a different story. I like the card, and I like what it does sometimes when you get lucky, but I can't imagine the combination of that card floating around in my deck and relying on a Ponder to make it worth while. I've learned that if it dies, you die. Even when I was being embarrassed by an Angelic Wall , having the mana to hardcast it did not seem like a good idea, since other things that I could be doing with that mana seemed more hopeful.
2 cards for five damage doesn't seem worth it. 6 mana kill spells in red are hardly ever worth it in real competition.
I don't understand how you don't get how ponder can help a deck with a few miracles. It lets you choose how the next three cards will be drawn and even gives you one of them immediately.
It's the classic "works on paper but not in practice". Based on what Ponder does, and based on how Miracles work, they seem like a good idea to run in a deck together on paper. But when you are actually sitting down against someone who is sitting there for no other reason than to make you lose, things don't quite turn out that way. Also, the few times that you do get it to work are at best meaningless, and at worst a waste of resources.
Scenario: turn one island, ponder... whoops looks like I will draw Temporial Mastery next turn... Instead I will draw it on turn three when I can cast it.
If you took this argument over to Magic General, someone would be willing to do the math and tell you how rarely this will happen. Here, I'll just say that an extra turn that early doesn't mean too much as it relates to the final outcome of the game.
I don't understand how you don't get how ponder can help a deck with a few miracles. It lets you choose how the next three cards will be drawn and even gives you one of them immediately.
It's the classic "works on paper but not in practice". Based on what Ponder does, and based on how Miracles work, they seem like a good idea to run in a deck together on paper. But when you are actually sitting down against someone who is sitting there for no other reason than to make you lose, things don't quite turn out that way. Also, the few times that you do get it to work are at best meaningless, and at worst a waste of resources.
It's not so much that - it's more that people don't actually work out on paper what the card does. They have some vague idea in their head of what it does that isn't accurate, and because of that they don't only play the card wrong (e.g. on Turn 1 in a long-game deck that will inevitably draw those three cards anyway), but they also include it in deck building when they shouldn't.
Scenario: turn one island, ponder... whoops looks like I will draw Temporial Mastery next turn... Instead I will draw it on turn three when I can cast it.
If you took this argument over to Magic General, someone would be willing to do the math and tell you how rarely this will happen. Here, I'll just say that an extra turn that early doesn't mean too much as it relates to the final outcome of the game.
The probability of that occurring in a deck with 4 Ponders and 2 Temporal Masteries is roughly 1.5% (actually, it's a little bit lower, I didn't include the probability of getting an untapped blue source).
The aspect that they miss is that - That 1.5% success rate just got yourself two dead draws, you are have to be running often-dead cards, and you got an Explore. Well done, boys.
I have horrible luck when it comest to how well my deck gets shuffled and where it gets cut. I have shuffled 20 times and still got mana pockets or drawn into everything I didn't need on turn one. Getting a Temporal Mastery on the next draw is something that I EXPECT to happen with my luck.
I just know how I play and how my luck runs with the decks I make. 1.5% happens alot to me and has been the cause of a lot of losses with really good decks. Such good decks that I can play that person 4 more times and win them all but just got the crappy draw when it counted.
I also make decks that are more mid-game or are able to deal with the fast game if I have what I need in the first few turns. I all like digging for cards so ponder in Blue makes sense to have even if I don't run 4.
1. I get to look at the top 3 cards, and I get draw. 2. I get to set up a miracle if their is one to be had. 3. I get to reshuffle for a chance of a miracle and draw if their isn't one, and that's my only hope.
Yup, it's a great card, and should be in many counter/control decks.
I don't run in in flare or venser control, but they have graveyard recurrsion so why would I?
Explore is a little more accurate, but yeah pretty much.
Explore . Look at that, it doesn't give me an extra attack phase. Damn. I guess it's an explore + a relentless assault . Only some of the creatures that couldn't attack during the first attack phase because of summoning sickness, now can. Seems good for cmc 2. Actually, seems fair at 6 or 7 and just broken at 2.
Turn 1: Delver
Turn 2: Ponder attack for 1 (or 3), another Delver?
Turn 3: Temporal Mastery, vapor snag, swing for 6.
Turn 4: (3 part 2) Swing for 6. Hold up enough mana for double mana leak, or maybe drop a runechanter's pike and hold mana leak mana up, or just equpi it for another 2 damage since they'll only be putting their 3rd land out. Swing for another 6 - 8. (15 - 18 damage on turn "3." 15 damage with double mana leak mana open). Doesn't even seem that unlikely.
That is great, assuming you can get all of those cards in hand.
The example you used is LITERALLY the BEST case scenario. One that will not happen very often at all.
The problem here is that effects like Temporal Mastery most often become more useful the longer a game goes on. Temporal Mastery is even more of a problem because you often have no real control over WHEN you gain that extra turn.
What happens when you draw that Temporal Mastery T3 with 2 unflipped Delvers on the board. Good job, you just got an extra attack in with two 1/1's who likely wont even be able to attack in because your opponent will have blockers.
Discounting that, the non-Miracle cost is overly expensive for what a Delver list wants to be running. Starting with it in your opening hand is effectively a mulligan down to 6. And most of the time, drawing it within the first 2-3 turns will do nothing more for you than Explore will.
Also, Delver lists run tons of cantrips (Ponder , Gitaxian Probe , Thought Scour ) every one of which has the chance of putting the card in your hand without being able to cast it for its miracle cost.
Also, although not really a huge deal, there is always that chance you draw Temporal Mastery T1.....which is just TERRIBLE.
Sure, there are situations where that extra turn is going to win you the game, but more often than not, the risks just outweigh the potential benefits.
"I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am all men as I am no man and therefore I am a God."
That is great, assuming you can get all of those cards in hand.
The example you used is LITERALLY the BEST case scenario. One that will not happen very often at all.
I think the best case scenario would've used 3 Delvers.
The problem here is that effects like Temporal Mastery most often become more useful the longer a game goes on. Temporal Mastery is even more of a problem because you often have no real control over WHEN you gain that extra turn.
At 2 mana you have no control. You can make the call to play it for 7 if taking an extra turn at that time doesn't work for you for some reason.
What happens when you draw that Temporal Mastery T3 with 2 unflipped Delvers on the board. Good job, you just got an extra attack in with two 1/1's who likely wont even be able to attack in because your opponent will have blockers.
You'll get to play an extra land, draw an extra card, and have an extra chance to flip and/or draw a ponder to set up the flip.
Discounting that, the non-Miracle cost is overly expensive for what a Delver list wants to be running. Starting with it in your opening hand is effectively a mulligan down to 6. And most of the time, drawing it within the first 2-3 turns will do nothing more for you than Explore will.
Also, Delver lists run tons of cantrips (Ponder , Gitaxian Probe , Thought Scour , every one of which has the chance of putting the card in your hand without being able to cast it for its miracle cost.
Also, although not really a huge deal, there is always that chance you draw Temporal Mastery T1.....which is just TERRIBLE.
Sure, there are situations where that extra turn is going to win you the game, but more often than not, the risks just outweigh the potential benefits.
Early in the game you have LESS chance to draw it than later in the game. You speak of probability and then ignore it for your worst case scenario. Guess what, explore is a good card as it is. With the option to attack a second time it's a ridiculously powerful card. Some Delver decks have already taken out probe and thought scour is an instant so you can cast it during your opponent's turn letting you still cast that miracle. Ponder let's you set up the next 3 cards so that's irrelevant unless you hit triple temporal mastery. Of course, I might not mind having one dead draw so that I can take 3 turns in a row (and I'm sure those extra turns would be useful in getting close to hard cast that 3rd temporal in hand).
We won't even go into blue/red where you can just toss it into the graveyard a dozen different ways if it's stuck in hand.
: Regenerate.
