Community

Actually it's quite logical that someone will envy someone else that's getting a better treatment when both are supposed to be equal, especially when the reason for the better treatment is solely personal choices and luck. (Personal choice : going to a non-advanced shop.... and luck... well I hope I dont have to explain this one)

If I came here and gave 100$ to some of the people that didnt like the helvault and told you that because you loved the helvault (completely a personal choice) you dont even get a chance at that 100$. How would you feel? Would logic dictate your reaction, no Mr.Wannabespeook, you'd feel discriminated for no valid reason. Why? It's pretty simple, you value yourself as an equal to everyone else and as an equal, if I am to give away free stuff, you should have an equal chance at getting it if you meet the prerequisite, which is being a member of this forum in this case. If I told you that your choice of liking the helvault disqualified you from that 100$, you wouldnt feel like an equal.

You might be happy that some people got 100$, but you sure as hell would feel betrayed, rejected and angry at the fact that I told you that you werent equal in my eyes and that the reason for it was your choice/opinion.

Wanting equality for equally deserving people is VERY logicial

May 3, 2012 -- 12:05PM, 7thGate wrote:

I am continually amazed that people actually have their own enjoyment diminished because other people got something better than them.  There have been a number of people that have made comments to the effect that they were marginally satisfied or didn't really care about the hellvault, then became angry or unhappy once they found out other people got better stuff.  This is fascinating, since there exists no logical reason for this to happen; its entirely a psychological effect based on comparing ones own situation to others.  That doesn't make it irrelevant or a wrong position or anything, I just find it odd because I tend not to think that way, so seeing so many people feel like this feels strange.

Personally, I don't really mind other people randomly getting better stuff that much.  This pretty much happens in a grand scale across all aspects of life already, and in most of these cases it is far more significant than a bunch of judge foils.  It bothers me that some people would apparently rather have had nothing than what we got, since I definitely would rather get my 20 sided die and have other people get judge foils than have all of us get nothing.  For that matter, I would rather other people get something great and I get nothing than to have everyone get nothing.  Why would I want players as a whole to get less sweet stuff?

May 3, 2012 -- 2:00PM, Travelsonic wrote:

May 3, 2012 -- 12:05PM, 7thGate wrote:

I am continually amazed that people actually have their own enjoyment diminished because other people got something better than them.

Not as amazing as those who don't get it, no matter how clearly it was posted before by X many people.

It isn't about the people who got the contents of the premium helvaults, people, it's about the premium helvaults, how they were handled, that they even existed like this, etc...

It is:

A. WotC
B. WotC's hyping of the helvault
C. WotC's OVER hyping the helvault, and instead of really awesome things that would make sense we get things that are cool, but not really as usable as we'd want or reasonably expect.
D.The fact that on top of that, out of the 6,000 helvaults, 30 contained insane stuff - judge promos, foils, etc, 30 out of 6,000 - 0.5% of all helvaults.  
E. ON TOP OF THAT, the fact that ADVANCED STORES were the only ones that got a CHANCE to GET one of these helvaults.
F. The fact that WotC didn't make it a consistent set of prizes ranging from meh to good for EVERY helvault, no favoritism stuff, and went about it this way.


It is clear you skimmed over too quickly, or didn't read much of the reasoning behind the outrage - I suggest you do, as a lot of your preconcieved notions are based less on fact and more on quick judgment it **SEEMS**

These two posts pretty much sum up this entire thread. If this is the first post that someone reads in this thread, here's the TLDR version; you're welcome.

May 3, 2012 -- 3:50PM, SleetFox wrote:

1 out of 200 is not "all your other coworkers" you know.

So shafting 1 in 200 is somehow worse than shafting 199 in 200?

While this debacle did not affect me for reasons I posted elsewhere, I will say this: I do not collect tabletop games in order to be discriminated against. Games Workshop has already lost me as a customer due to their efforts to treat some of their customers far worse than others (first by charging customers in some countries up to 80% more for the same product, and then refusing to supply any gaming store that would try to bypass this trade embargo, without going into the whole "One codex for Space Marines, one codex for everyone else, one codex for Space Marines..." issue).

The situation with the Helvaults rubs me the wrong way, for the same reason. If Wizards wants to reward Advanced stores for fostering a thriving M:tG scene I have no issue with that, but the difference in treatment should be felt by the organiser and not the customer. The customer has done nothing wrong by supporting their FLGS's event instead of the Advanced store's, and should not be punished for that decision by silently excluding them from part of the prerelease.

May 3, 2012 -- 12:05PM, 7thGate wrote:

I am continually amazed that people actually have their own enjoyment diminished because other people got something better than them. 

My enjoyment of prerelease was not diminished or ruined by the cheap crap in my store's Helvault.  I was, however, expecting something much better, since Wizards had hyped it as this crazy Piñata of Awesomeness.

May 3, 2012 -- 9:52PM, MoiMoi wrote:

 Would logic dictate your reaction, no Mr.Wannabespeook, you'd feel discriminated for no valid reason. Why? It's pretty simple, you value yourself as an equal to everyone else and as an equal, if I am to give away free stuff, you should have an equal chance at getting it if you meet the prerequisite, which is being a member of this forum in this case. If I told you that your choice of liking the helvault disqualified you from that 100$, you wouldnt feel like an equal.

Well, according to some accounts, certain Helvaults were worth "several thousand dollars more" than others. Assuming that most people here on the forums that enjoyed the Helvault got one that was worth more than most others, don't they already have a rough equivalent of your 100 US dollars in free stuff already?

99.5% of Helvaults contained stuff barely worth $50 in total.  The remaining 0.5% contained stuff worth $5,000-10,000 each.

May 4, 2012 -- 9:53AM, Xyx0r wrote:

99.5% of Helvaults contained stuff barely worth $50 in total.  The remaining 0.5% contained stuff worth $5,000-10,000 each.

Really?

I mean, I don't have an accurate count of what was in each Helvault. But these numbers seem a little off. 

May 4, 2012 -- 4:55PM, JustTerrorIt wrote:

May 4, 2012 -- 9:53AM, Xyx0r wrote:

99.5% of Helvaults contained stuff barely worth $50 in total.  The remaining 0.5% contained stuff worth $5,000-10,000 each.

Really?

I mean, I don't have an accurate count of what was in each Helvault. But these numbers seem a little off. 

So far as the actual VALUE of the premium helvaults, that is correct, we don't exactly know.

Well, going by current prices...

Regular Helvault

54 Oversized EDH Cards @ roughly $0.75 each = $40.50

162 Double Sided Tokens @ roughly $0.10 each = $16.20

54 Spin-down Die @ roughly $0.10 each = $5.40

Grand total of a regular Helvault: $62.10


Special Helvault

54 Oversized Foil EDH Cards @ roughly $180 each = $9,720

162 Foil Double Sided Tokens @ roughly $80 each = $12,960

54 Spin-down Die @ roughly $0.10 each = $5.40

54 Judge Promos @ roughly $100 each = $5,400

Grand total of a special Helvault: $28,085.40


So yeah, going by current prices the special helvaults had just a -little- more value in them. Also, I'd like to point out that the price of the Foil EDH Cards and the Foil Tokens has been rising exponentially since last Sunday. So the price of the special Helvaults will more than likely increase even more over the next few weeks.

May 4, 2012 -- 5:58PM, StarForger wrote:

Well, going by current prices...

Regular Helvault

54 Oversized EDH Cards @ roughly $0.75 each = $40.50

162 Double Sided Tokens @ roughly $0.10 each = $16.20

54 Spin-down Die @ roughly $0.10 each = $5.40

Grand total of a regular Helvault: $62.10


Special Helvault

54 Oversized Foil EDH Cards @ roughly $180 each = $9,720

162 Foil Double Sided Tokens @ roughly $80 each = $12,960

54 Spin-down Die @ roughly $0.10 each = $5.40

54 Judge Promos @ roughly $100 each = $5,400

Grand total of a special Helvault: $28,085.40


So yeah, going by current prices the special helvaults had just a -little- more value in them. Also, I'd like to point out that the price of the Foil EDH Cards and the Foil Tokens has been rising exponentially since last Sunday. So the price of the special Helvaults will more than likely increase even more over the next few weeks.

Not taking any side as I didn't go, but just wanted to chime in, your numbers are way, way, off for the special helvault. Frist of all, no one is going to pay $180 for the oversized foils, even if they are listed at that. Wait a week for the hype to die down and they're easily going for $20 a pop at best. Next, I just want to say, on a similar note, no one is paying $80 dollars for a token even if they are listed at that. Plus, some helvaults had $100 each promos, but many had promos with lesser value, so thats probably another incorrect stat, depending on contents.

May 4, 2012 -- 5:58PM, StarForger wrote:

162 Foil Double Sided Tokens @ roughly $80 each = $12,960

$80 for a foil double sided foil token? I'm sorry, but I find it very difficult to believe that any Magic player that has played this game for any substantial amount of time would pay Tarmogoyf type dollars on a token. Even n00bs that find that they can't cast cards with no mana cost would shy away from paying such an amount for a token card. 
 

Well, this guy has sold a pair of foil tokens on eBay for $75 with 'Buy It Now' auctions.  

www.ebay.com/itm/FOIL-double-sided-Angel...

I don't see $80 as being far fetched.  The oversized Avacyn on bid now is almost $200:

www.ebay.com/itm/Mtg-magic-1x-FOIL-overs...

The Judge promos are what vary, anywhere from $10-$120 each depending on what was included.

This was so unfair on so many levels, and the word 'sorry' has yet to be heard from WotC.

Later,

Don! 

Just rechecked, my prices are accurate. Hell, I even checked eBay to see what people were bidding. Multiple Foil Tokens are being bid on right not at roughly $80. As for Foil EDH cards, the only one up anymore is ONE Avacyn, at $175. And this is where you guys are making the mistake, players aren't buying them, collectors are. Only .5% of Helvaults contained these items. Most collectors are buying them and then locking them away somewhere. The supply is decreasing, and steadily throughout the week more collectors have found out about these (and continue to find out) thus leading to an increasing demand. Also, remember that these were only released in the US. Collectors from every other country are trying to get these currently too. With such a high demand, the prices aren't going down anytime soon.

@monoredburn

I know some are less than $100, but some were also more so I took a rough guess at $100. Variation is there, but it's not alot.



Edit: I just checked, and Don is right. The only Foil EDH card is now up to $200. So, my prices are spot on, except the variation in the promos, like I said.

... gosh.

I was just getting free stuff, so I tried to make the best of it. I didn't know that so many dollars were being made off this stuff through eBay.  

@Justterrorit

I know. MANY people on here didn't know, that's why I posted the table. And I've read your posts, and can completely see the point you were making. It's just you need to understand, WotC basically gave the people in 30 events the money to build a good legacy deck, multiple modern decks, or the ability to be competitive in standard for at least 1 -2 years. Or hell, save it or just use it to buy something else that you want. Everyone else got a thank you gift. The massive difference is what has people riled up, not the actual Helvaults themselves.

May 4, 2012 -- 8:31PM, StarForger wrote:

It's just you need to understand, WotC basically gave the people in 30 events the money to build a good legacy deck, multiple modern decks, or the ability to be competitive in standard for at least 1 -2 years. Or hell, save it or just use it to buy something else that you want. Everyone else got a thank you gift. The massive difference is what has people riled up, not the actual Helvaults themselves.

I see.

But it could be because I did not realize how hyped this whole thing was. I mentioned in the thread I created that I had called Super Games, which is the store I normally go to for prereleases. The person I talked to mentioned that perhaps there was a lot more hype put out than what was provided.

I'm starting to see that now. Even in light of the fact that I totally missed the hype.

Did WotC **** up with all the hype? I don't know; I missed it. Did they **** up in general with this whole Helvault thing? I can't be the judge of that, but I am starting to see why people feel shammed. 

Wait, it took you 250 posts to start to realize it? Have you read what was written in half of those posts? It's been written SEVERAL TIMES that there was discrimination in the way they sent the helvault. It's been written SEVERAL TIMES that the big helvault was worth 5 numbers. It's been written SEVERAL TIMES that there was a super hype and that only 0.5% of the players actually saw the super hype coming true while the rest were kind of let down.

I don't begrudge anyone else getting something awesome, and although I'm a little disappointed that I did not, I'm still happy with my spindown die.  However, I didn't just randomly lose in a lottery, I was excluded from it by Wizards.  In doing so, they basically gave the finger to my entire local MTG community.  That the premium Helvaults handed out an obscene 500 eBay dollars per person adds considerable insult to injury.

Did someone really just drop the word "discrimination" in a thread about free plastic and cardboard?

May 5, 2012 -- 9:40AM, SleetFox wrote:

Did someone really just drop the word "discrimination" in a thread about free plastic and cardboard?

As hyperbolic as it may be, the use of the word actually sounds 100% spot on [going on strict textbook definitions] - in that the non-advanced stores, and by extension the users, were discriminated against by the choice to only select "advanced " stores for a chance to get a premium helvault.

May 5, 2012 -- 9:40AM, SleetFox wrote:

Did someone really just drop the word "discrimination" in a thread about free plastic and cardboard?

The word 'discrimination' is perfectly fitting vocabulary for the situation. Your own personal associations with the word do not invalidate that.

lol i would havebeen happy with a D20, that was a spin down, deff NOT the same. i dono, i tihnk the helvault did was it was supposed to, which is put butts in seats playing magic, which i'm 100% ok with. as for those of us that were gonna be there helvault or not, i feel let down. i feel WoTC could have done alot better. if that was all that was gonna be in there, they shouldn't have made it seem so big. but all in all, i had fun so i really dont care up or down.

Content has been removed due to violations of section 2, Discriminatory Language of the Code of Conduct.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.  

May 5, 2012 -- 4:12AM, MoiMoi wrote:

Wait, it took you 250 posts to start to realize it?

Well, yeah. I don't think I'm dense or anything, but I didn't really start to ``get it'' until I spoke with one of the people at SuperGames and he gave me more insight into what happened, and that brought things into perspective.

You see MoiMoi, I did not, at all, realize that there was so much hype around the Helvault. I have stopped reading the main Magic site regularly. There was a thread here in general asking "What was in the Helvault", but I did not visit that thread because I assumed that it was something related to the story of this set; much like someone asking "What's in Mirrodin's Core ". 

Of course, I did not receive flyers in the mail. I did not see television commercials. I did not hear anyone talking about it at work. I did not go look it up, because I didn't know it existed. I woke up that morning, ate something, my friend and I murdered a couple hundred people in Modern Warfare 3, and then I drove us down to the store. He talked more about how I am legally supposed to parallel park with the flow of traffic and not against it than he did about the Helvault.

I literally had no idea that there would be a checklist involved, or that there was a mysterious box of goodies that everyone would get. Then I come here and see people are upset, and then I consider it to be a "very vocal few" sort of thing, and then get stuck on the topic of ``Advanced Stores''. 

After calling SuperGames (four times as many people were there than Above Board Games), and I find that being an Advanced Store only put you in the lottery to get better stuff (they had to add things from thier own inventory because there was no Helvault large enough to support the amount of players that show up there), I started to see the point. When I called, I was sure that they got a proverbial box of gold. But it turns out no one in that state did, nor did any store in my state.

So I simply have a different perspective now. And I'm sorry if I offended anyone with that whole "Karl shows up and its an advanced store by default". I was still on a high of getting surprise free stuff. I wasn't looking forward to anything free like most others were.

I simply did not know.  

May 5, 2012 -- 2:37PM, rulesinquisitor wrote:

May 5, 2012 -- 9:40AM, SleetFox wrote:

Did someone really just drop the word "discrimination" in a thread about free plastic and cardboard?

The word 'discrimination' is perfectly fitting vocabulary for the situation. Your own personal associations with the word do not invalidate that.

Other surprisingly flexible words include "orgy" and "holocaust," but just like "discrimination," there's a lot of baggage to those words.  Using them in a context like this is evidence that emotions are way too high.

May 5, 2012 -- 5:33PM, SleetFox wrote:

May 5, 2012 -- 2:37PM, rulesinquisitor wrote:

May 5, 2012 -- 9:40AM, SleetFox wrote:

Did someone really just drop the word "discrimination" in a thread about free plastic and cardboard?

The word 'discrimination' is perfectly fitting vocabulary for the situation. Your own personal associations with the word do not invalidate that.

Other surprisingly flexible words include "orgy" and "holocaust," but just like "discrimination," there's a lot of baggage to those words.  Using them in a context like this is evidence that emotions are way too high.

This is just being ignorant.  You can "discriminate" between any two distinct groups, objects, or events.  It does not mean racism/sexism/etc. 

"To discriminate" is a verb, which very simply means "to recognize a distinction or differentiate".  The word is used scientifically in the sense of "to respond selectively to (a stimulus)".  There is no inherent "baggage" attached to the word.

The word is only used in reference to racism and other civil rights issues because we consider differentiating/seperating/creating a distinction/etc between people based on arbitrary factors to be unacceptable.  Using it in this context does not cause the two words to mean the same thing.

Neither "orgy" or "holocaust" are flexible words.  "Orgy" has a very clear and obvious defintion, all other uses of it are entirely tongue-in-cheek and not meant to be taken literally.  "Holocaust" can either refer to a specific event in Nazi Germany or (if not used as a proper noun) to any event involving mass destruction/slaughter.

I thought the stuff in the Helvault was alright; the d20 was cool and the token went well with the Moonsilver Spear promo. I was pretty thrilled about the EDH-Commander card until I learned I had to have the regular-sized one along with it (got Gisela oversized, and Bruna regular sized from a booster o_0). But still, since this was my first organized event (been playing since I was about 10, but never done anything like this until now) I was mostly excited about the boosters and the promo. The Helvault contents were mostly a secondary concern, and they turned out to bee kinda nice so I'm cool with what I got.

    I've removed content from this thread because baiting/trolling is a violation of the Code of Conduct.  You can review the Code of Conduct here www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_...

Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.

May 5, 2012 -- 5:33PM, SleetFox wrote:

May 5, 2012 -- 2:37PM, rulesinquisitor wrote:

May 5, 2012 -- 9:40AM, SleetFox wrote:

Did someone really just drop the word "discrimination" in a thread about free plastic and cardboard?

The word 'discrimination' is perfectly fitting vocabulary for the situation. Your own personal associations with the word do not invalidate that.

Other surprisingly flexible words include "orgy" and "holocaust," but just like "discrimination," there's a lot of baggage to those words.  Using them in a context like this is evidence that emotions are way too high.

Assuming that certain words have inherent "baggage" or associations (which I still disagree with), "discrimination" remains far more open to different contexts than "orgy" or "holocaust". It's literal meaning is perfectly fitting and there's really no reason to take issue with its use. The fact that you do just makes it seem like you are beyond the point of reasonable debate, and just want to nitpick and antagonize the people making a point you disagree with. If that's not the case, I apologize; if it is, you should ask yourself why you even continue to look at this thread.

I thought the Helvault was fantastic. I was already going to play in the pre release, but when this was announced, it just gave me more incentive. I like the art on Gisela and Avacyn, so I got those two oversized. They are utterly worthless to me otherwise, as the big cards are far too cumbersome to mess with in Commander (the only format I play). The Tokens were awesome, especially since I like to collect tokens, and that allows my carry box to drop both the angels and demons for a single card. I'd like to see more double sided tokens in the future, rather than the ads on the back of the pack tokens. It'd also be nice to just see the ads in the packs to disappear, but I digress. The Spindowns were extra nice, especially since I still haven't seen a fatpack die like them, which leads me to think they are exclusive to the events.

I enjoyed my experience, and everyone else at the store I go to did too. It was fun, and there was free promotional material involved. I have yet to see a valid complaint.

May 7, 2012 -- 9:32PM, DrendDragonspawn wrote:

I have yet to see a valid complaint.

Did you, by chance, try reading this entire topic, or any of the ones on MTGSalvation?  The arguments are quite well articulated, if you ask me. 

How can you guys complain.  These items were FREE! The dice alone sells for 5 bucks on ebay.  If you were lucky enought to get the premium helvault then those foil cards are like 60 bucks.  And you get these things just by playing?  When we used to get nothing?  How can you be disappointed?!

A free shafting is still a shafting.

The Helvault was an entertaining shot at some free, cool stuff. That's good enough for me.

May 8, 2012 -- 7:30AM, Xyx0r wrote:

A free shafting is still a shafting.

I would disagree.  Shafting suggests the default would be the .5% of the Helvaults.  Wouldn't it make more sense to make the default the 99.5% and have the .5% considered to have an awesome bonus?

What part of "Making a select few at targeted stores better than all the rest, so that people are funneled away from smaller stores, and dividing the community due to favortism" should be considered Awesome?

I really don't think that's going to funnel people away like you're thinking.  Heck, I'm sure most of the people who even were aware of the special Helvaults also realized they were random.

It may not funnel a lot of people away, but it will likely funnel some.  I've watched two smaller stores in my local area go belly up in the past couple of years, and part of that was the economy and part of that was simply because the smaller stores had a harder time with supporting the game at the grass roots level.

It may not seem like much to you, but there's a big difference when you have seven people show up for FNM instead of eight.  Once you can't get eight folks to play, the entire system stops supporting the game in that area.  It sets up a death-spiral effect, and then it takes a whole lot more to establish the game in that area than it would to keep it going.

The larger sites get a lot more attention from WotC, which is good in the sense that larger means a wider distribution of resources -- but bad in that it keeps the game from branching out into more local areas.

We've already noticed a couple of our regulars from the local store who decided that they would go and play at the release events this weekend at the larger store -- just in case they had another 'special' event for this as well.  The sad part was that it was sort of true -- since the larger store had kept some of the promos and other materials from past events and handed them out at their AR tourney over the weekend.

Larger stores already have enough advantages, but they don't necessarily grow the game or the brand.  Smaller stores need help, and the Helvault experience didn't provide that help from WotC -- and in some cases, it may have actually hurt.

Later,

Don! 

May 8, 2012 -- 8:52AM, SleetFox wrote:

May 8, 2012 -- 7:30AM, Xyx0r wrote:

A free shafting is still a shafting.

I would disagree.  Shafting suggests the default would be the .5% of the Helvaults.  Wouldn't it make more sense to make the default the 99.5% and have the .5% considered to have an awesome bonus?

No.  Shafting suggests that certain communities were selected to receive something ridiculously expensive while others got the near equivalent of nothing.

May 8, 2012 -- 3:21PM, Xyx0r wrote:

May 8, 2012 -- 8:52AM, SleetFox wrote:

May 8, 2012 -- 7:30AM, Xyx0r wrote:

A free shafting is still a shafting.

I would disagree.  Shafting suggests the default would be the .5% of the Helvaults.  Wouldn't it make more sense to make the default the 99.5% and have the .5% considered to have an awesome bonus?

No.  Shafting suggests that certain communities were selected to receive something ridiculously expensive while others got the near equivalent of nothing.

Why look a gift horse in the mouth? The "special" Helvaults were a nice little "extra" distributed among some stores, but not most, in the same logic as that behind the "mythic" rarity. The rest of the Helvaults were just a nice little something extra added on to the prerelease. I don't know about you, but the store I went to charged the same as they usually do to attend prereleases. If yours didn't because of the Helvault, that's the store's choice not Wizards'.

May 8, 2012 -- 3:21PM, Xyx0r wrote:

May 8, 2012 -- 8:52AM, SleetFox wrote:

May 8, 2012 -- 7:30AM, Xyx0r wrote:

A free shafting is still a shafting.

I would disagree.  Shafting suggests the default would be the .5% of the Helvaults.  Wouldn't it make more sense to make the default the 99.5% and have the .5% considered to have an awesome bonus?

No.  Shafting suggests that certain communities were selected to receive something ridiculously expensive while others got the near equivalent of nothing.

Fluff has never been worth anything.  Would you like another Suture Priest ?  You aren't getting shafted if you got the same thing you usually get: a foil promo and some other near-worthless stuff.

May 8, 2012 -- 11:41AM, DonTheMage wrote:

It may not seem like much to you, but there's a big difference when you have seven people show up for FNM instead of eight.  Once you can't get eight folks to play, the entire system stops supporting the game in that area.  It sets up a death-spiral effect, and then it takes a whole lot more to establish the game in that area than it would to keep it going.

I can totally agree with these sentiments. I can see why it would be much harder to attract people to smaller stores. There have been plenty of occasions when my friend and I would miss the first round of an FNM, sometimes on purpose to do something like eat or go to Blockbuster, knowing that we could sign up, take the loss for round 1, and play the rest of the four rounds. The point of that is to say that if I showed up to an FNM with only 7 to 9 people, I would leave and go to a bigger place, even if it meant automatically losing the first round. People leaving and going to a different place, or people staying there that one time and never going back makes building something meaningful an uphill battle. 

I don't have a solution to this, though it'd be nice if someone did.  

May 8, 2012 -- 3:30PM, CyberSpade wrote:

Why look a gift horse in the mouth? The "special" Helvaults were a nice little "extra" distributed among some stores, but not most, in the same logic as that behind the "mythic" rarity.

The comparison to a booster/fat pack/etc does not work purely because of the absolute minuscule quantity of special ones being distributed among so few [relatively speaking] stores in the first place - just the "advanced" stores - there was no consistent chance.

It's bad that only the advanced stores got the 1/200 chance but I can understand why they did it: they don't want to give a store 54 awesome prizes if it's too small to actually distribute those prizes without doubling up or pocketing the extras for some quick cash.  They're fine with a store distributing 10 oversized legends and selling the rest because that's worth so little money it's not worth doing.  But giving out 10 judge promos and such and selling the rest is a serious issue for small stores.

Content has been removed from this thread for violation of the CoC. You can read the CoC here:

www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_...

Remember, we are trying to maintain a mutually beneficial and positive environment for everyone here.

If there are any questions do not hesitate to contact us. 

May 8, 2012 -- 4:30PM, SleetFox wrote:

You aren't getting shafted if you got the same thing you usually get: a foil promo and some other near-worthless stuff.

Shafting has nothing to do with the absolute value of the stuff you get and everything with the relative value compared to what others are getting.  If you give certain people the equivalent of $500 and the others only $1, for what feels like arbitrary reasons, then that's serious shafting.

I'm happy with my spindown die.  However, I'm also unhappy that I got excluded from a wonderful thing on the basis of where I live.  The sense of unfairness that this treatment gives me considerably outweighs the satisfaction I get from my spindown die.

This is not about the stuff I got.  I expected almost nothing and that's exactly what I got.  It's also not about what others got.  I don't begrudge anyone their $500 jackpot, ridiculous though it may be.  It's about the fact that Wizards thought it'd be fun to put a lump of coal in one kid's sock and a diamond in another kid's sock.  There's nothing fair about this.  It wasn't even a matter of dumb luck.  It's just Wizards giving the finger to anyone who didn't happen to go to an advanced store.  As in "look what we could have given you instead, but decided not to!"

Again, if tomorrow you were to receive a $1 pay raise while all your co-workers get, for no particular reason, a $500 raise instead, would you still be all "yay I got a raise"?

This has all been explained a bunch of times over, and from various perspectives.  I would think this is basic psychology and all rather apparent. 

@JTI

Man I'd love to go to your store where missing a round doesn't hurt. My LGS sucks at player rewards in the first place. Plus, since we only do four rounds at FNM, skipping the first hurts you a lot, and if you don't have a winning record you get nothing so If I miss the first round, I usually end up with no packs.

    I've removed content from this thread because baiting/trolling is a violation of the Code of Conduct.  You can review the Code of Conduct here www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_...

Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.

May 9, 2012 -- 1:56AM, Xyx0r wrote:

Again, if tomorrow you were to receive a $1 pay raise while all your co-workers get, for no particular reason, a $500 raise instead, would you still be all "yay I got a raise"?

If you want to make an analogy, wouldn't it make sense to not have the majority get 500 dollars?  'Cause it's a tiny minority here.

If I learned it was just random chance and if my boss wouldn't have raised the rest of us any more had (s)he not done the random big raise, I wouldn't really get mad.  Assuming I believe them, which honestly I wouldn't.  But I see no reason to believe that had Wizards not done this, they would have put more expensive goodies in all the Helvaults.

Look, I'm not saying no one was going to be angry, but I'm saying it's irrational and it's helpful to try to appreciate what you got.  It's better to be happy than angry.

May 9, 2012 -- 1:56AM, Xyx0r wrote:

There's nothing fair about this.  It wasn't even a matter of dumb luck.  It's just Wizards giving the finger to anyone who didn't happen to go to an advanced store. 

Just for the record, not every advanced store got a special Helvault. Advanced stores were merely the only stores entered into the Special Helvault Lottery. I have verified this through SuperGames, who did not get a Special Helvault Winning Lottery Ticket. 

May 9, 2012 -- 10:18AM, SleetFox wrote:

If I learned it was just random chance

It wasn't random chance. If you went to a non-Advanced store, you weren't even in the running.

And they had a good reason for that.  It's unfortunate, but let's be rational adults here.

I am sure most of us are being rational. It is rational to say that this is a bad policy, and that instead of printing *and* distributing old foils, the efforts would have been better spent printing non-foil, interesting cards that went into all helvaults. Instead of making so few very special, more effort should have gone into making them *all* special.

There is flawed logic here, and it's not yours, Sleetfox, no matter how much I disagree with you. The flawed logic is completely on the part of WOTC marketing, and you defending the flawed logic isn't helping.

It takes just as much effort to print "non-interesting" cards as it does to print "interesting" cards.  Wizards could have put foil Black Lotus es in every Helvault if they wanted to and it'd take pretty much exactly the same amount of effort and money on their part.  They probably just wanted to do something particularly cool to get people talking, but didn't want to flood the market with judge promos.

Was this a good idea?  No, I would say it's not the best.  I understand what they did, but I don't think it was the best for marketing.  Making all the oversized cards and the tokens foil wouldn't have costed them money or detracted from the awesome of the special Helvaults, for instance.  Not to mention it would be consistent with the Commander oversized cards; I have seven giant legendary creatures and only one isn't foil: Bubbles .  Not to mention every regular-sized promo is foil.  But most of this "shafted" talk is not criticizing this maturely.  Most of it is just complaining about haves and have-nots.

Who wasnt mature in this whole post? I've only seen mature replies and people wearing panties that reported stuff that wouldnt even be moderated in a Disney forum. To tell the truth, our side has provided about 10 different rational approach as to why we didnt like the helvault favoritism/discrimination/shafting while you've insulted our side over and over again by saying we are irrational, immature, not adults and this is just your last 2 posts.

The overwhelming feeling we can get from this whole post is that most people didnt like the way WoTC handled the helvault and that you are the exception to that feeling.

Hey everyone.

It seems you have quite the heated debate going on. While the forums are a great place to debate and hash out ideas, try to keep it civil and as polite as possible, providing evidence instead of slinging insults.

Just remember that any directed insults or harassment is a violation of the Code of Conduct.

Thanks, and happy posting everyone.  

Having read through the entire thread in one sitting...I'm going to agree with JTI and Sleet.

Yes, WotC made a mistake with the special Helvaults, in that they did not declare that they existed before the event started. In all fairness, they should have announced that randomly selected stores would receive extra special Helvaults with premium contents that would not be given out at other stores, if only to keep people from being blindsided by this. It was dishonest, and is exactly the kind of mistake I expect them to make again and again.

On the otherhand, the sheer amount of rage strikes me as equally unfair. Some of the complaints aren't even WotC's fault. Stores inflating their prices because of the promotion is not Wizard's fault, that's the individual store owners skimming their own client base. If the store owner didn't open the Vault, that's the store owner's fault The idea that players were harmed by not being included in a .5% chance they didn't even know existed? That this is somehow a punishment or insult? To me that's just absurd. Wizards never made any promises about content, and of course they hyped it. It's their own product, and I'm sure they see plenty of extra sales on prerelease days, Helvault content or no Helvault content. On top of that, they tried to do something nice, a little suprise for some players, and now the community is outraged that they weren't the lucky ones? This wasn't predetermined in any way, it wasn't as if the Helvaults were allocated to specific stores because the owner is Richard Garfield's second cousin on his niece's side twice removed, but was randomly selected from large, popular stores that have contributed to the over all health of Magic. Ok, fine, you didn't find a Golden ticket with a chance to get into Wonka's chocolate factory, despite loyaly eating the same chocolate little Charlie did. So what? All this raving shows me is incentive for Wizards to not try more surprise bonuses in the future. I'd rather be able to try my luck next time then never be able to try it all, if its all the same with you.

I see people talking about living near three or four stores, how the little ones were harmed by the spoilers of the extra content, but how many communities really offer that inside any reasonable travelling distance? How many players are actually going to drive an extra hour and a half out of their way to go to a different store? Of the few stores that did lose business, how many were already suffering due being in the same area as a larger, more successful store? That's the way these things work. Similar businesses compete with each other, and generally the bigger one wins.

Did you go to the prerelease? Did you get the foil Spear? Did you engage in games of Magic with the intent of winning packs? Was the Helvault opened? If the answer is yes to all those questions, then you got exactly what you were promised, nothing more, nothing less.

Great post!

The problem I see with them saying ahead of time that some Helvaults contain judge promos is that I imagine tons of stores would secretly ransack their Helvaults.  I would have prefered "Some Helvaults have even more special contents" or something vague like that.

May 9, 2012 -- 5:09PM, SleetFox wrote:

The problem I see with them saying ahead of time that some Helvaults contain judge promos is that I imagine tons of stores would secretly ransack their Helvaults.  I would have prefered "Some Helvaults have even more special contents" or something vague like that.

Yeah, ""Some Helvaults will have extra premium content" would have been fine with me as well.

May 9, 2012 -- 4:40PM, Deckhopper wrote:

Stores inflating their prices because of the promotion is not Wizard's fault, that's the individual store owners skimming their own client base.

I don't see how this is (entirely) the individual stores fault. Neither the prerelease solicitation or the helvault instructions let stores know to not charge more for the promotion. It certainly seems like a reasonable assumption that the hyped, special, limited space event you have to preregister for is something you can, and probably should, charge more for. It would have been very easy for wizards to enforce some kind of pricing structure, but they decided not to (there are stories floating around about them telling stores to charge more for helvault events if the store thought they would be oversubscribed, but I don't really see any evidence of that). Wizards provided strong incentives for stores to charge more, and the reason not to charge more (that the helvaut was full of stuff with value of approximately 0) was not something that was easy to infer from any of the information they gave out. Setting up an environment with strong incentives to mark up the cost of the special version of an event and then acting shocked when stores respond to these incentives seems odd.

May 9, 2012 -- 5:58PM, bob_the_wonder_Beeble wrote:

May 9, 2012 -- 4:40PM, Deckhopper wrote:

Stores inflating their prices because of the promotion is not Wizard's fault, that's the individual store owners skimming their own client base.

I don't see how this is (entirely) the individual stores fault. Neither the prerelease solicitation or the helvault instructions let stores know to not charge more for the promotion. It certainly seems like a reasonable assumption that the hyped, special, limited space event you have to preregister for is something you can, and probably should, charge more for. It would have been very easy for wizards to enforce some kind of pricing structure, but they decided not to (there are stories floating around about them telling stores to charge more for helvault events if the store thought they would be oversubscribed, but I don't really see any evidence of that). Wizards provided strong incentives for stores to charge more, and the reason not to charge more (that the helvaut was full of stuff with value of approximately 0) was not something that was easy to infer from any of the information they gave out. Setting up an environment with strong incentives to mark up the cost of the special version of an event and then acting shocked when stores respond to these incentives seems odd.

AFAIK, Wizards does issue standard pricing guidelines, generally referred to as MSRP. They also give the stores a general idea of what should be charged for the events, based on what the prize pool should be. The fact that stores were neither charged for the Helvault nor told to charge more for the prerelease means that any extra charges or increases in the price were entirely at the store's discretion. Blaming it on the hype doesn't cut it; Wizards always hypes Prerelease, Release, and Game Day, usually with the promo card and whatever gimmick. (Picking sides in Mirrodin vs. Phyrexia, Humans vs. Monster for DKA, or the Helvault for AVR. These events are always preregistered, and hyped for a good month during spoiler season. If you do something that you aren't told to do, entirely of your own volition and for your own profit, you can't blame someone else for not telling you to not do it.

After this fiasco, though, I think Wizards could do well to send out an announcement to store-owners discouraging upcharging for prerelease events.  Or even worse, threaten to decomission (or whatever they do) stores that are reported to outright scalp players.

May 9, 2012 -- 6:14PM, Deckhopper wrote:

May 9, 2012 -- 5:58PM, bob_the_wonder_Beeble wrote:

May 9, 2012 -- 4:40PM, Deckhopper wrote:

Stores inflating their prices because of the promotion is not Wizard's fault, that's the individual store owners skimming their own client base.

I don't see how this is (entirely) the individual stores fault. Neither the prerelease solicitation or the helvault instructions let stores know to not charge more for the promotion. It certainly seems like a reasonable assumption that the hyped, special, limited space event you have to preregister for is something you can, and probably should, charge more for. It would have been very easy for wizards to enforce some kind of pricing structure, but they decided not to (there are stories floating around about them telling stores to charge more for helvault events if the store thought they would be oversubscribed, but I don't really see any evidence of that). Wizards provided strong incentives for stores to charge more, and the reason not to charge more (that the helvaut was full of stuff with value of approximately 0) was not something that was easy to infer from any of the information they gave out. Setting up an environment with strong incentives to mark up the cost of the special version of an event and then acting shocked when stores respond to these incentives seems odd.

AFAIK, Wizards does issue standard pricing guidelines, generally referred to as MSRP. They also give the stores a general idea of what should be charged for the events, based on what the prize pool should be. The fact that stores were neither charged for the Helvault nor told to charge more for the prerelease means that any extra charges or increases in the price were entirely at the store's discretion. Blaming it on the hype doesn't cut it; Wizards always hypes Prerelease, Release, and Game Day, usually with the promo card and whatever gimmick. (Picking sides in Mirrodin vs. Phyrexia, Humans vs. Monster for DKA, or the Helvault for AVR. These events are always preregistered, and hyped for a good month during spoiler season. If you do something that you aren't told to do, entirely of your own volition and for your own profit, you can't blame someone else for not telling you to not do it.

The helvault events had (at least what was implied to be) a tangible increase in prize support, added additional logistic constraints and were a events with very limited space. All of these things distinguish it from previous promotions like Humans vs. Monsters, or picking sides. Pretty much all the documents about the prerelease are vague about the price (I actually can't find anything online with an MSRP for the event). When you set up a system that encourages people to do something you don't want them to do, and don't really make any kind of attempt to counter these incentives, you certainly share some of the responsibility when people do it. Charging like $5 extra for a limited space, special event with extra prizes isn't exactly unbelievably unreasonable store behavior, especially when wizards policy on event pricing has pretty much always been charge whatever you want.

MSRP stands for Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price.

It is just that: a suggestion. Stores are under no obligation to charge MSRP at all. They can charge more or less if they like.

That said, I am not familiar in the slightest with WotC's pricing rules and regulations for stores and events so I do not know whether there is another way that WotC is  dictating specific prices to their stores. However that is dicy ground when it comes to price fixing and anti-competition laws so I wouldn't be suprised if the only price guidelines given to stores is the MSRP. Which, again, puts the store under no obligation to comply.

May 9, 2012 -- 6:35PM, bob_the_wonder_Beeble wrote:

(Snipped for space)

The helvault events had (at least what was implied to be) a tangible increase in prize support, added additional logistic constraints and were a events with very limited space. All of these things distinguish it from previous promotions like Humans vs. Monsters, or picking sides. Pretty much all the documents about the prerelease are vague about the price (I actually can't find anything online with an MSRP for the event). When you set up a system that encourages people to do something you don't want them to do, and don't really make any kind of attempt to counter these incentives, you certainly share some of the responsibility when people do it. Charging like $5 extra for a limited space, special event with extra prizes isn't exactly unbelievably unreasonable store behavior, especially when wizards policy on event pricing has pretty much always been charge whatever you want.

The Helvault was never described as prizes, it was described as swag. In fact, the contents were accurately predicted here and other places to be the minor knick knacks that were given out in the vast majority of cases. Even in the handful of cases with Supervaults they weren't issued as prizes, but as bonus attendence gifts. There's also the fact that many stores didn't deviate from their usual prices for these events. So you have a handful that decided to tack up the price, many who didn't, and Wizards acting the way Wizards has always acted. When only one part of a group starts acting differently, it tends to be for reasons of their own.

People who had their prices jacked up ultimately made them dislike their store more.  Which is fine; they shouldn't have done that.

The error on Wizards' part is a lot of people will blame Wizards when it wasn't even them who did the overpricing.  As this thread clearly shows.

May 9, 2012 -- 6:53PM, Deckhopper wrote:

The Helvault was never described as prizes, it was described as swag. In fact, the contents were accurately predicted here and other places to be the minor knick knacks that were given out in the vast majority of cases. Even in the handful of cases with Supervaults they weren't issued as prizes, but as bonus attendence gifts. There's also the fact that many stores didn't deviate from their usual prices for these events. So you have a handful that decided to tack up the price, many who didn't, and Wizards acting the way Wizards has always acted. When only one part of a group starts acting differently, it tends to be for reasons of their own.

There isn't really a meaningful difference between swag and prices. They both are non-trivial increases in the value of the event. If the prizes were like a some like fnm-ish foils and die or something, people wouldn't be terribly upset for paying $5 extra to play in the special bonus event. Pretty much the only ways stores who raise prices actually suffer is if the prizes are completely worthless, which, based on the reaction, was not something that everyone was expecting. Wizards provided plenty of reasons to charge more and no reasons not to. Just because some stores chose to behave naively doesn't mean that all stores had to or should be blamed for not doing so. Wizards changed the incentive structure, and stores responded. Wizards acting differently is what induced stores to act differently.

May 9, 2012 -- 7:02PM, bob_the_wonder_Beeble wrote:

May 9, 2012 -- 6:53PM, Deckhopper wrote:

The Helvault was never described as prizes, it was described as swag. In fact, the contents were accurately predicted here and other places to be the minor knick knacks that were given out in the vast majority of cases. Even in the handful of cases with Supervaults they weren't issued as prizes, but as bonus attendence gifts. There's also the fact that many stores didn't deviate from their usual prices for these events. So you have a handful that decided to tack up the price, many who didn't, and Wizards acting the way Wizards has always acted. When only one part of a group starts acting differently, it tends to be for reasons of their own.

There isn't really a meaningful difference between swag and prices. They both are non-trivial increases in the value of the event. If the prizes were like a some like fnm-ish foils and die or something, people wouldn't be terribly upset for paying $5 extra to play in the special bonus event. Pretty much the only ways stores who raise prices actually suffer is if the prizes are completely worthless, which, based on the reaction, was not something that everyone was expecting. Wizards provided plenty of reasons to charge more and no reasons not to. Just because some stores chose to behave naively doesn't mean that all stores had to or should be blamed for not doing so. Wizards changed the incentive structure, and stores responded. Wizards acting differently is what induced stores to act differently.

Except Wizards didn't change the incentive. They offered free knick knacks as promotional goodies, which they've been doing for pretty much their entire existence, whether it be foil FNM cards, full art promos, specially branded M&M's, etc. The stores that didn't raise prices weren't acting "naively", they were acting the way they've always acted when Wizards pops out a new promo for their quarterly release. Its the ones that decided to suddenly charge $40 instead of $30 that has people riled, and those stores are far from the majority.

May 9, 2012 -- 7:24PM, Deckhopper wrote:

Except Wizards didn't change the incentive. They offered free knick knacks as promotional goodies, which they've been doing for pretty much their entire existence, whether it be foil FNM cards, full art promos, specially branded M&M's, etc. The stores that didn't raise prices weren't acting "naively", they were acting the way they've always acted when Wizards pops out a new promo for their quarterly release. Its the ones that decided to suddenly charge $40 instead of $30 that has people riled, and those stores are far from the majority.

There was basically no indication the helvault was full of knick knacks. It was " a vessel filled with additional player prizes" that is so exciting players should preregister for and wizards heavily advertised. How is that not different from the other prerelease promos? Monsters vs. humans had no additional prize support. Neither did mirrodin vs. phyrexia. How is offering a highly advertised, limited enrollment event with the promise of additional prizes that will "be much anticipated by your Magic community" not meaningful change in structure? They are both increasing demand and reducing supply. There are pretty obvious reasons why stores would want to charge more and wizards did pretty much nothing to let them know not to.

May 9, 2012 -- 7:47PM, bob_the_wonder_Beeble wrote:

There was basically no indication the helvault was full of knick knacks. It was " a vessel filled with additional player prizes" that is so exciting players should preregister for and wizards heavily advertised. How is that not different from the other prerelease promos? Monsters vs. humans had no additional prize support. Neither did mirrodin vs. phyrexia. How is offering a highly advertised, limited enrollment event with the promise of additional prizes that will "be much anticipated by your Magic community" not meaningful change in structure? They are both increasing demand and reducing supply. There are pretty obvious reasons why stores would want to charge more and wizards did pretty much nothing to let them know not to.

1) I have yet to see a Prerelease/Release that Wizards hasn't heavily advertised. Magic is their flagship product, and they push the releases at least a month a head of time, if not longer. The advertising for AVR wasn't all that impressive, to be honest. At least, I don't recall it having the same push Scars had, what with its own website, the war reports, etc. Innistrad got what, one little flash story told in some odd places on the main site? All the pushing for the Helvault was done at the end of the weekly articles here on the site. By definition these are one shot, limited space events with one time swag in the form of the alt art promo.

2) I have yet to see a Prerelease/Release that hasn't opened for preregistration. My FLGS opens about two weeks ahead of time, every single time. So nope, still nothing out of the ordinary.

3) New sets are always highly anticipated by the Magic community. Then, usually, pretty roughly criticized until the next few tournaments settle out the formats with the new cards, at which point everyone starts either playing the winning decks, or brewing answers to deal with them.

The only thing that set AVR apart from others was the "Opening the Helvault" which was pushed with the same, "Pick a side and complete tasks for your group" style operation that Dark Ascension and Mirrodin Besieged had at their prereleases. Even early on the consensus was the Helvault was going to have rather lackluster materials, with most people figuring on tokens or spindowns. A lot of the hype you're discussing is mostly imagined.

May 9, 2012 -- 8:12PM, Deckhopper wrote:

May 9, 2012 -- 7:47PM, bob_the_wonder_Beeble wrote:

There was basically no indication the helvault was full of knick knacks. It was " a vessel filled with additional player prizes" that is so exciting players should preregister for and wizards heavily advertised. How is that not different from the other prerelease promos? Monsters vs. humans had no additional prize support. Neither did mirrodin vs. phyrexia. How is offering a highly advertised, limited enrollment event with the promise of additional prizes that will "be much anticipated by your Magic community" not meaningful change in structure? They are both increasing demand and reducing supply. There are pretty obvious reasons why stores would want to charge more and wizards did pretty much nothing to let them know not to.

1) I have yet to see a Prerelease/Release that Wizards hasn't heavily advertised. Magic is their flagship product, and they push the releases at least a month a head of time, if not longer. The advertising for AVR wasn't all that impressive, to be honest. At least, I don't recall it having the same push Scars had, what with its own website, the war reports, etc. Innistrad got what, one little flash story told in some odd places on the main site? All the pushing for the Helvault was done at the end of the weekly articles here on the site. By definition these are one shot, limited space events with one time swag in the form of the alt art promo.

2) I have yet to see a Prerelease/Release that hasn't opened for preregistration. My FLGS opens about two weeks ahead of time, every single time. So nope, still nothing out of the ordinary.

3) New sets are always highly anticipated by the Magic community. Then, usually, pretty roughly criticized until the next few tournaments settle out the formats with the new cards, at which point everyone starts either playing the winning decks, or brewing answers to deal with them.

The only thing that set AVR apart from others was the "Opening the Helvault" which was pushed with the same, "Pick a side and complete tasks for your group" style operation that Dark Ascension and Mirrodin Besieged had at their prereleases. Even early on the consensus was the Helvault was going to have rather lackluster materials, with most people figuring on tokens or spindowns. A lot of the hype you're discussing is mostly imagined.

So you want to argue that:

• No prizes in addition to the standard prerelease prizes were promised, ignoring the solicitation that says that the helvault contains additional prizes?
• That this was exactly the same as monsters vs. humans or faction packs, one of which was not promoted at all, and both didn't promise any increase in prizes?
• That these events weren't limited to at most 54 players?
• That every store was going to let people preregister anyway? That this did not inconvinience any stores in any way? That nobody was encouraged to preregister for this exciting, space is limited event in way that didn't happen with any other prerelease?
• That nobody expected the helvault to have anything anyone would want? That there was no advertising that showed promoted the helvault as having exciting secret content? The spindown/tokens guesses basically all showed up after people opened the helvault and posted the contents online.
• That nothing about the helvault at the AVR prerelease was different in any meaningful way from say the m12 prerelease?

Prereleases always being hyped and this prerelease being hyped more, both through increased adveritsing and a more exciting promotion that promised extra prizes, are not mutually exclusive.

I find it silly to compare this pre-release with any other prerelease.

The helvault was presented as a treasure chest, through a video and was much much much more hyped than any of the other pre-release. I barely heard of the New phyrexian vs mirrodin and heard nothing about the humans vs monsters. But I heard for several months (yes months) about the helvault event. It was something special, it even had a video showing a guy opening the vault and having it glow in his face, there was a mystery behind it's content. It was a limited event that only 54 players could participate in.

The helvault was supposed to be special for everyone of those 54 in any store. It turns out that it wasnt special for 99,5% of the players (yes there was extra price in the normal helvault, but nothing really useful, it wasnt certainly worth pre-registering, it wasnt worth the hype, the mystery.

But you learn that a small number of helvaults where worth literally 3000-5000 times your helvault. Not to mention that your store couldnt even get a chance at getting those helvault (I understand the reason behind the choice for advanced shops only, we all do, but it doesnt change the fact that it resulted in a blatant discrimination of the smaller shops). So the large majority of people feel like they have gotten scraps for a lot of trouble (pre-registration is something very unusual and it can be challenging if you got a tight schedule).

You feel cheated, it's normal to feel cheated. You got scraps and never had a chance at gold, the bigger store had a chance at getting gold.

If I was a small store owner, I might have made more sales with this event, but I know that if they do another similar event later and there's the same parameters, I know I will lose customers that will decide to travel to bigger stores to have a chance at this gold instead of being sure of getting scraps.

Lesson of this : Equality is better than shafting 99.5% of your playerbase and giving a real treasure to 0.5%. I'm pretty sure that if everyone had gotten the same value in cards, no one would have said anything else than "meh oversized cards and 2 faced tokens"

May 9, 2012 -- 8:30PM, bob_the_wonder_Beeble wrote:

 
So you want to argue that:

• That these events weren't limited to at most 54 players?

They had an actual limitation of 54 players? For one of the stores I go to, that's a below-average attendance FNM. They added items from thier own inventory to accomodate more than 54 players. Some of the additional things added to those Helvaults I would have taken any day over a giant EDH Summon Legend and my billionth spindown life counter. 

May 9, 2012 -- 10:18AM, SleetFox wrote:

May 9, 2012 -- 1:56AM, Xyx0r wrote:

Again, if tomorrow you were to receive a $1 pay raise while all your co-workers get, for no particular reason, a $500 raise instead, would you still be all "yay I got a raise"?

If you want to make an analogy, wouldn't it make sense to not have the majority get 500 dollars?  'Cause it's a tiny minority here.

That does not affect the principle at stake in the slightest.  It just amplifies the problem to proportions where it ought to be obvious to everyone.

Note that by your strange logic, shafting 5970 communities is somehow better than shafting only 30 communities.

May 9, 2012 -- 10:18AM, SleetFox wrote:

If I learned it was just random chance

What if you learned it wasn't just random chance?

May 9, 2012 -- 4:40PM, Deckhopper wrote:

In all fairness, they should have announced that randomly selected stores would receive extra special Helvaults with premium contents that would not be given out at other stores

...except there was nothing random about me not seeing any premium Helvault action.

I wouldn't nearly have felt as bad if I had simply lost a lottery.

May 9, 2012 -- 4:40PM, Deckhopper wrote:

I'd rather be able to try my luck next time then never be able to try it all, if its all the same with you.

Me, I'd rather not get shafted again on the basis of where I live, if it's all the same with you.

May 9, 2012 -- 4:40PM, Deckhopper wrote:

How many players are actually going to drive an extra hour and a half out of their way to go to a different store?

For a chance at an extra $499?  Are you kidding?!

May 9, 2012 -- 4:40PM, Deckhopper wrote:

Did you go to the prerelease? Did you get the foil Spear? Did you engage in games of Magic with the intent of winning packs? Was the Helvault opened? If the answer is yes to all those questions, then you got exactly what you were promised, nothing more, nothing less.

I also got a bad feeling because I got shafted.

Can we stop excaggarating the hype behind the Helvault? It really wasn't that big. I think I saw it on the arcana once or twice and though "Meh, I wonder what crap they filled that with."
Yes, it had a video. Why didn't MBS have a video? Because they were't using them as frequently at the time. DKA also had a video, was DKA incredibly overhyped?


I'm not sure how you calculated that each person got 500$ worth of value. I'm pretty sure the special Helvaults weren't worth 27000$ in total value, even if I haven't looked into the math and content of it too much. If people want to drive for what has so far been talked about as a 0.5% chance or so, you should consider the lottery, the payout is probably larger when compared to gas prices.

May 10, 2012 -- 3:24AM, Mown wrote:

Can we stop excaggarating the hype behind the Helvault? It really wasn't that big. I think I saw it on the arcana once or twice and though "Meh, I wonder what crap they filled that with."
Yes, it had a video. Why didn't MBS have a video? Because they were't using them as frequently at the time. DKA also had a video, was DKA incredibly overhyped?


I'm not sure how you calculated that each person got 500$ worth of value. I'm pretty sure the special Helvaults weren't worth 27000$ in total value, even if I haven't looked into the math and content of it too much. If people want to drive for what has so far been talked about as a 0.5% chance or so, you should consider the lottery, the payout is probably larger when compared to gas prices.

Would you walk up to a Math professor busy deriving an equation on the blackboard and say to him "I haven't even looked at your proof but I am pretty sure that what you are doing is wrong"?

Go back and read the thread. People have derived those numbers from real world prices that people are actually paying. Could those numbers be artifically inflated? Sure. Could they be misleading about the true worth (is there even such a thing?) of these prizes? Sure. But that is what people were paying so that is the value.

May 10, 2012 -- 3:49AM, f4sak3n wrote:

May 10, 2012 -- 3:24AM, Mown wrote:

Can we stop excaggarating the hype behind the Helvault? It really wasn't that big. I think I saw it on the arcana once or twice and though "Meh, I wonder what crap they filled that with."
Yes, it had a video. Why didn't MBS have a video? Because they were't using them as frequently at the time. DKA also had a video, was DKA incredibly overhyped?


I'm not sure how you calculated that each person got 500$ worth of value. I'm pretty sure the special Helvaults weren't worth 27000$ in total value, even if I haven't looked into the math and content of it too much. If people want to drive for what has so far been talked about as a 0.5% chance or so, you should consider the lottery, the payout is probably larger when compared to gas prices.

Would you walk up to a Math professor busy deriving an equation on the blackboard and say to him "I haven't even looked at your proof but I am pretty sure that what you are doing is wrong"?

Go back and read the thread. People have derived those numbers from real world prices that people are actually paying. Could those numbers be artifically inflated? Sure. Could they be misleading about the true worth (is there even such a thing?) of these prizes? Sure. But that is what people were paying so that is the value.

The math was actually highly flawed, using a few ebay auctions to determine that each promo card was valued at near $200 a pop. The guy who did the math even admitted that the vast majority of the cards weren't going to be those prices (especially the judge promos) but used only the higher value anyway. By contrast, SCG has the foil promos going for between $60 to $100 each, between 1/3 to 1/2 the rate assumed in the $27,000 evaluation.  The same can be said for the Judge foils. Most are listed on SCG for between $20-$30, with only about five or six going for more than a hundred over all. So unless every card in those vaults was a Judge Gaea's Cradle there's no way the $27,000 figure should stand.

May 4, 2012 -- 8:04PM, StarForger wrote:

Just rechecked, my prices are accurate. Hell, I even checked eBay to see what people were bidding. Multiple Foil Tokens are being bid on right not at roughly $80. As for Foil EDH cards, the only one up anymore is ONE Avacyn, at $175. And this is where you guys are making the mistake, players aren't buying them, collectors are. Only .5% of Helvaults contained these items. Most collectors are buying them and then locking them away somewhere. The supply is decreasing, and steadily throughout the week more collectors have found out about these (and continue to find out) thus leading to an increasing demand. Also, remember that these were only released in the US. Collectors from every other country are trying to get these currently too. With such a high demand, the prices aren't going down anytime soon.

@monoredburn

I know some are less than $100, but some were also more so I took a rough guess at $100. Variation is there, but it's not alot.



Edit: I just checked, and Don is right. The only Foil EDH card is now up to $200. So, my prices are spot on, except the variation in the promos, like I said.

I admit I stand corrected. (Though I would still quibble over the judge promos. As I said, the average there is probably closer to about $30, not $100)

Currently on ebay, there's a bunch of foil double sided tokens being sold 34$ each with 2+ days left. The bidding war isnt even started. While the non foil average around 2-3$ much closer to the expiration of the bidding.

There's a lot of foil oversized cards being sold, the ones that are the closest to being done, less than 12 hours are all at around 135$. Now we take a look at the regular oversized cards and they are on average 3-4$ each.

The judge promo are hard to find so I'll take the number given here, 30$ to hundreds, let's make it a nice 50$ a pop.

Normal helvault in term of resale value :
3$ X 108 + 4$ X 54 = 540$ (not bad)

Super helvault in term of resale value :
34$ X 108 + 135$ X 54 + 50$ X 54 = 13662$

So 25,3 times the resale value, I took the lowest numbers and approximation about what I saw. We all know that aunctions with 2 days left will see a raise in price.

May 10, 2012 -- 3:24AM, Mown wrote:

Can we stop excaggarating the hype behind the Helvault? It really wasn't that big. I think I saw it on the arcana once or twice and though "Meh, I wonder what crap they filled that with."
Yes, it had a video. Why didn't MBS have a video? Because they were't using them as frequently at the time. DKA also had a video, was DKA incredibly overhyped?


I'm not sure how you calculated that each person got 500$ worth of value. I'm pretty sure the special Helvaults weren't worth 27000$ in total value, even if I haven't looked into the math and content of it too much. If people want to drive for what has so far been talked about as a 0.5% chance or so, you should consider the lottery, the payout is probably larger when compared to gas prices.

Mown, if you can't even be invested enough in the conversation to read where they did the math for you, and a simple check on Ebay (Here) to see what the tokens are worth, as not even talking about the things like a foil Serra Avenger (here), then there is no helping you.

The premium vaults are demonstratably more valuable. By a signifigant amount. The issue is that it was not advertised as a lottery and in the future all of them will be treated as such, even if nothing is going on, on a "Just in Case".

As far as hype goes, just because you missed it doesn't mean it didn't happen. It also doesn't help that part of the hype was having their stores do it for them. I was bombarded for up to one and a half months to preregister by the site, my two local comic store, and the big card shop, not to mention flash ads, twitter, and facebook. I applaud you at ignoring advertising and cutting it out of your life, but to say it was not hyped all that much would be a gross misrepresentation of the campaign.

Get invested, please? Ignorance is not a place to make a stance.

The whole price was mostly just an offshot that 27k sounded like an absurd amount, but that was assuming everything costed exactly the same, which is obviously a mistake on my part.
Since I didn't attend, how much did each participant get out of the special helvault? I'm still not seeing how it adds up to 500$ worth of stuff.

However, I do not believe that it was that much hype, since I haven't seen it. If I only see it when I actively try to get information about magic the gathering, then it's not big. Avengers has a lot of hype, Skyrim has a lot of hype, the Helvault was just a box of uncertainty.
I just checked their facebook wall for the heck of it:
Open the Helvault!

And that was like the only thing control-F gave me. So I searched their main site, which is a dreadful experience enough in itself.
The Helvault and Prereleases
AVR FAQ

At this point everything starts to become forum content or storyline stuff.
I don't use Twitter, so navigating it is somewhat new to me, but I can't find any unrealistic tweets regarding it on dailymtg or wizards_magic.

I can't find much hype from my own store, but the interest here isn't as high. However, I do not think Wizard sent mail with it saying "Please tell everyone our Helvault is awesome and promote the crap out of it."

Honestly I don't think Wizards had any idea people would pay such ridiculous prices for the shinier versions of the fluff.  They knew judge promos were valuable but that's about it.  The 27,000 figure is probably far more than they planned on.

May 10, 2012 -- 7:33AM, Mown wrote:

If I only see it when I actively try to get information about magic the gathering, then it's not big. Avengers has a lot of hype, Skyrim has a lot of hype, the Helvault was just a box of uncertainty.

While this statement is simply awesome, it is also quite true. If you follow Magic on Facebook, Twiiter, and other social media besides this site, of course you are going to hear a lot more about it than those of us that don't. I really don't read Arcana; does that make me ignorant? Probably not.

Even when the information was leaked early about what was in the Helvault (I just found this out last night), I still didn't know it existed until I arrived at the game shop. My friend claims to have mentioned it to me, but I didn't know what he was talking about, or didn't care, as he probably wasn't all that hyped about it (he did mention to someone what he heard was in it between rounds 1 and 2, though). 

Yet, I can't walk around at work without people asking have I seen/played Avengers/Skyrim (I am still refusing to play that game). I go on Slashdot, and people are making Avengers references. You go on any game website, and there is something about Skyrim somewhere. 

The World Series, Black Ops 2; that's hype. 

These are not exact numbers, but these are accurate"ish" numbers.

You are comparing the hype of something that's aimed at 10 millions people (skyrim, black ops 2), 150 millions people (avenger, the world series) to the hype of something that's aimed at 100k people?

So I'll say that the hype of this helvault over the country was MUCH MUCH MORE spectacular than the hype of that garage sale I saw on a lamp post 2 days ago. DAMN the helvault had such an insane hype compare to that garage sale!

May 10, 2012 -- 10:43AM, EvilMe wrote:

So I'll say that the hype of this helvault over the country was MUCH MUCH MORE spectacular than the hype of that garage sale I saw on a lamp post 2 days ago. DAMN the helvault had such an insane hype compare to that garage sale!

From my point of view, the hype of the Helvault and the hype of that garage sale were roughly equivalent.

Just because you didnt see it doesnt mean that it wasnt there... I dont see world series advertissement ANYWHERE in my life, ever, I almost never watch TV yet I know there's massive advertissement pushing it because people talk about it. The community of magic talked about the helvault 50 times more than they talked about the human vs monsters gimmick, that alone is a proof that there was insane hype behind it.

Either way, that was hype made by the community, them making wild conclusions isn't something wotc should be held responsible for.

These forums were pretty silent by the way.

May 10, 2012 -- 11:20AM, Mown wrote:

Either way, that was hype made by the community, them making wild conclusions isn't something wotc should be held responsible for.

These forums were pretty silent by the way.

I'm not sure how wild the conclusions need to be for the helvault to be dissapointing. Like something on the level of an fnm or game day promo (so like a foil common/uncommon with some new art) and some kind of cool avacyn restored gimmicky thing (like the dice/double sided token for instance) would have been much better received. Its probably fair to say that people should have expected the contents to be less exciting than the advertising was representing, but expecting something as useless as an oversized card + a token seems extremely pessimistic based on the amount they were talking about it on the mothership/facebook/twitter/etc, partially because a reaction like this to stuff like that seems like something they should have anticipated.

These forums had like a 10 page thread guessing what was in the helvault. I'm not sure how silent that is.

That's because Magic players have this urge and desire to try and predict stuff before it becomes spoiled. It happens with nearly everything, ever. From the Vaults, Commander Precons, Content of Set, what the next set will be.

And just because they were discussing it didn't mean it had a lot of hype. There was a lot of "Maybe they do M&M's again" or "Well, it can't be as terrible as pro player cards".

May 10, 2012 -- 11:20AM, Mown wrote:

Either way, that was hype made by the community, them making wild conclusions isn't something wotc should be held responsible for.

These forums were pretty silent by the way.

Here, quick search, we get 3 threads before this one. Not horrible hyped on the forum itself, but that is because almost everyone here reads and listens to the news on WOTC's main site, which promoted the helvault in ...12? 20? I'll get an exact count if you want it, posts on their website and their video confernces about the thing.

On Magic Salvation, we have easily over 25 threads on the thing, between stores promoting it and general inquiries and rumors, and that's BEFORE the whole reveal the vault thing.

WOTC helped direct and guide the community into a buyer's market, exactly as a good marketing campaign should do, and Magic Salvation helps prove that.

...

No one is holding WOTC responsible for the wild conclusions. We are holding them responsible for making a lottery out of a promotional stunt that not only did many people didn't know they were in, but that purposefully will shunt the players for new pre-release stunts away from smaller stores, and creating ill will inside the community. Oh, and shafting people out of money cards, but that part I care a whole lot less about.

May 10, 2012 -- 12:58PM, Mown wrote:

That's because Magic players have this urge and desire to try and predict stuff before it becomes spoiled. It happens with nearly everything, ever. From the Vaults, Commander Precons, Content of Set, what the next set will be.

And just because they were discussing it didn't mean it had a lot of hype. There was a lot of "Maybe they do M&M's again" or "Well, it can't be as terrible as pro player cards".

The slogan (or at least the hashtag they endorsed) was literally was something like "What's in the Helvault?" There was a whole article about how cool it was to speculate what was in the helvault.

May 10, 2012 -- 1:07PM, bob_the_wonder_Beeble wrote:

May 10, 2012 -- 12:58PM, Mown wrote:

That's because Magic players have this urge and desire to try and predict stuff before it becomes spoiled. It happens with nearly everything, ever. From the Vaults, Commander Precons, Content of Set, what the next set will be.

And just because they were discussing it didn't mean it had a lot of hype. There was a lot of "Maybe they do M&M's again" or "Well, it can't be as terrible as pro player cards".

The slogan (or at least the hashtag they endorsed) was literally was something like "What's in the Helvault?" There was a whole article about how cool it was to speculate what was in the helvault.

I know, I linked to it.


I haven't joined the discussion about your opinions on getting shafted, simply because I can't contribute to it. While I personally don't think it's justified, I simply don't care and trying to have any of you change your mind on that subject isn't all that realistic.

This Helvault promotion was a giant disappointment and I think WOTC recognizes it.

With regards to stores, WOTC actually created class separation with this last promotion.  It's very disappointing that they couldn't just put one or two great foils in every single Helvault instead of loading up 30 of them to select 'random' stores.

I'm an advanced storeowner/TO, so I guess I was in the pool to potentially get a 'Super Helvault,' but like the majority of stores I got a regular Helvault and my players were generally disappointed with the Helvault contents.  I advertised bonus prizes for my events such as Ion Deckboxes and Full art playmats.  These were things that I personally invested in prior to the prerelease.  I was concerned Helvault contents wouldn't live up to the hype, and I honestly wasn't thrilled that Helvault events were being encouraged to cap at 54 players because that meant there wouldn't necessarily be enough bonus prizes to go around if we ended up with more.  Not surprisingly, my players were very happy with the bonus prizes I personally gave out and 'less happy' with the actual Helvault contents.

The suggested event cap combined with the whole seals being unlocked process really did lend credence to the Helvaults containing something truly special.  Add to that the tremendous amount of PR that WOTC put out in the weeks leading up to the preleases with numerous articles/videos, you now have ALOT of players who really were expecting a unique event with potentially really memorable Helvault contents.

What the majority of players got instead were contents that could not even come close to living up to that kind of hype. 

Yes, the few and privileged 30 'super helvault' stores got more than they ever could've imagined, but that's assuming they all did the right thing and handed everything out.  From what I've read/heard from numerous reports, it didn't happen at all of thoese sites, and that's truly disappointing to hear as a TO/Storeowner.  If you're lucky enough to actually get a 'super helvault,' hand the stuff out. 

To be blunt, I consider the Helvaults to be the worst prerelease promotion WOTC has ever come up with.  Would it have been that big a deal to just distribute a couple foils in ALL of the Helvaults rather than create these massive 'Super Helvaults' that the overwhelming majority of players had no access to?

WOTC seemed very out of touch with its base this time around.  I love prereleases.  They are hands down my favorite kind of events to run out of the hundreds of tourneys I run yearly.  In general I think WOTC does a great job with how they approach prereleases, but this past Helvault promotion did just not even come close to meeting the expectations that were put out there and I think they recognize that.

For the sake of the game I hope they recognize it.

- Dave Feinstein
Owner/Operator
Die Hard Games

May 12, 2012 -- 2:54AM, Dxfiler wrote:

Would it have been that big a deal to just distribute a couple foils in ALL of the Helvaults rather than create these massive 'Super Helvaults' that the overwhelming majority of players had no access to?

I dont necessarily disagree with you, but who should have received those few foils? The top 2 players, who are already netting a big pile of boosters each? 2 random players? However you do it, theres going to be a lot of dissapointment and potentially resentment. Its bad enough coming 9th at Game Day due to tiebreakers and not getting the promo...

~ Tim 

May 12, 2012 -- 4:55PM, LMTRK wrote:

May 12, 2012 -- 2:54AM, Dxfiler wrote:

Would it have been that big a deal to just distribute a couple foils in ALL of the Helvaults rather than create these massive 'Super Helvaults' that the overwhelming majority of players had no access to?

I dont necessarily disagree with you, but who should have received those few foils? The top 2 players, who are already netting a big pile of boosters each? 2 random players? However you do it, theres going to be a lot of dissapointment and potentially resentment. Its bad enough coming 9th at Game Day due to tiebreakers and not getting the promo...

~ Tim 

I think the point is that at least something other than what store you go to (Advanced/not Advanced) would've determined if you had a shot at getting a special prize.

May 12, 2012 -- 2:54AM, Dxfiler wrote:

This Helvault promotion was a giant disappointment and I think WOTC recognizes it.

I hope they do to, but getting them to actually say they're sorry is impossible.  As a company, they are more likely to give you marketing double-speak (see the Hellvault follow-up article) than honesty.

Later,

Don!