Community

Apr 23, 2012 -- 9:36AM, IAmKingTony wrote:

One of the worst parts for me is that this set produced one human that is going to make it into my humans deck MAYBE and that's Riders Of Gavony. Even in that case I'm hesitant to cut Thraben Doomsayer for him due to the higher CMC. Deck only runs 20 lands afterall.

My humans deck is "Boros" by the red is only there to flashback Rally The Peasants . Now if I decided to expand the red a bit there might be more options but considering the only dual land I'll have to make that happen will be like $30 at launch I'm not entirely interested in doing that.

To be fair, if you get them now they'll only set you back like $20, and worst case scenario, you can trade them at more than that if you think they'll go up much.

I think I feel about what Highwayman said about this set.  I'm looking forward to limited (my favorite environment), but you definitely touched on my biggest concerns:  namely luck.  I feel that the miracle cards are really swingy and will totally change the game in a turn.  Luckily, I don't think many in my area are crafty enough to exploit this at prerelease; plus, there isn't enough deck manipulation to really make things significant with setting miracle up.  Which points to the luck factor swingy thing.

Standard typically has the best cards in it at one time.  If they print a weaker set, still, the best cards from each set are played in standard.  But especially in comparison to the last two sets; heck, last 4 sets (including NPH (which had BOMB uncommons) and M12), the uncommons pretty much stink in AVR. 

I feel about a third overall with the set is playable.  Some of it is WTF?  Some of it is Why?  And some is decent.

Edit-  Pet Peeve:  It's soulbond ppl, not soulbound.

The biggest "check it out I win Limited suddenly" miracles are the mythic rares so I don't think they'll destroy Limited.  I'm very excited for this set, but my main complaint is werewolves, which were a very popular tribe, got shafted.  They could've made the wolfir interact in non-obvious ways, but they really didn't.  I don't play werewolves but I think it would've been nice to show the deck some love.

Apr 23, 2012 -- 10:32AM, SleetFox wrote:

The biggest "check it out I win Limited suddenly" miracles are the mythic rares so I don't think they'll destroy Limited.  I'm very excited for this set, but my main complaint is werewolves, which were a very popular tribe, got shafted.  They could've made the wolfir interact in non-obvious ways, but they really didn't.  I don't play werewolves but I think it would've been nice to show the deck some love.

Indeed. I don't evaluate a set on its flavour so much, but when its good (like, Innistrad good) its a nice bonus. The werewolves were simply absent. I think that's a shame, as the Wolfir could have easily been non-flipping werewolves as a lead off to them becoming more commonly encountered creatures.

I understand AVR was intended to be mechanically distinct from ISD-DKA, but I can't help but feel disappointed that Zombies, Vampires, and Wolves each got about two decent cards

Saying Zombies and Vampires got any usable creatures is a bit of stretch even. Falkenrath Exterminator is cool, but I'm not sure if I'm not just content running Interloper and Child Of Night . Heirs Of Stromkirk is nice but now we're talking 4-drop vampires and Heirs has to hope to be 5th or 6th best in that lineup (top 3 are obvious, but I'd also put it behind Sangromancer and maybe Falkenrath Noble )... The one that exiles and copies is neat but the ability costs 6. For 1 more I can do 10 damage and gain 10 life...

Zombies got....... ?

I guess they both got Cavern Of Souls?

Yes... I don't really see the justification of there being only 2 Wolfir cards.

The problem with this set I find is that there is too much filler that no one really cards about, and is unnecessary. Too many wasted slots. Archangel for example is rather redundant to reprint here, another Wolfir card would have been far better. Limited has many other cards to choose than another fatty angel at 7 CMC.

And I agree with the OP's argument about how they blew the chance to make Angels a more tribally supported race. Okay, sure we don't have to print a lot of low CMC angels, but at least put in some cost reducers that matter -_-. Remember the Eldrazi?! Instead we get a colorless lifegain angel land... that functionally does nothing useful for the average angel deck, and an angel at 5 CMC, Herald of War ,... defeats the purpose.

Redundant design and development. Wasted opportunities. The only support that actually mattered that I saw for Angels or Wolves is the Cavern of Souls , but that isn't exactly the best example seeing as that's a glove that fits all.

And again, only 2 Wolfir?! WHERE'S THE LEGENDARY MYTHIC WOLFIR?!

My gosh it really makes no sense. I'll go eat lunch now.

Apr 23, 2012 -- 7:28AM, FogRaider wrote:

The only reason I could see for being disappointed in this set is if you exclusively play Black (and don't find the idea of Descendant's Path Zombies interesting.)

that's me. 


miracle's pretty cool, and there's synergy with liliana there, so the set's not a complete wash to me, but it's certainly forgettable for the most part.  

Apr 23, 2012 -- 7:28AM, FogRaider wrote:

The only reason I could see for being disappointed in this set is if you exclusively play Black (and don't find the idea of Descendant's Path Zombies interesting.)

As a green player, I'm also disappointed. I guess the land somehow counts for green, but apart from it and maybe Wolfir Avenger that's it. The rest is utter limited filler and the usual "WINMOAR how can't you be excited at the new most fun card ever?!" cards. Even counting with lowered expectations effect of Dark Ascension, this set fails to deliver. It was nice when someone defined this set as the "lucksack matters set". One needs to trace back to Eventide to find a last set this bland.

The set is pretty dull. It feels like a small set that they jammed a whole load of filler in to make it a large set. Design wise, the mechanics are stupid and the set enforces the worst elements of magic as the direction they want to go in. Initial reaction is that this set is one of my least favourites..... ever. Ok, I like it a bit more than homelands, but that's about it.

Apr 23, 2012 -- 1:17PM, javert wrote:

Apr 23, 2012 -- 7:28AM, FogRaider wrote:

The only reason I could see for being disappointed in this set is if you exclusively play Black (and don't find the idea of Descendant's Path Zombies interesting.)

As a green player, I'm also disappointed. I guess the land somehow counts for green, but apart from it and maybe Wolfir Avenger that's it. The rest is utter limited filler and the usual "WINMOAR how can't you be excited at the new most fun card ever?!" cards. Even counting with lowered expectations effect of Dark Ascension, this set fails to deliver. It was nice when someone defined this set as the "lucksack matters set". One needs to trace back to Eventide to find a last set this bland.

yeah, wow, that is pretty bad.   if it makes you feel better i'm considering seeing about running 1-2  Noxious REvival copies in Grixis and Esper miracle builds.

Apr 23, 2012 -- 11:52AM, IAmKingTony wrote:

Saying Zombies and Vampires got any usable creatures is a bit of stretch even. Falkenrath Exterminator is cool, but I'm not sure if I'm not just content running Interloper and Child Of Night . Heirs Of Stromkirk is nice but now we're talking 4-drop vampires and Heirs has to hope to be 5th or 6th best in that lineup (top 3 are obvious, but I'd also put it behind Sangromancer and maybe Falkenrath Noble )... The one that exiles and copies is neat but the ability costs 6. For 1 more I can do 10 damage and gain 10 life...

Zombies got....... ?

I guess they both got Cavern Of Souls?

Dread Slaver is pretty cool and the only competition it faces in it's slot are Grimgrin and Vengeful Pharoah. If you want to play a two-color zombie deck without blue, Slaver seems like it will probably be the way to go for your 5-slot.
Bone Splinters isn't a zombie but it is strong synergistic support.

But yeah, that IS scraping the bottom of the barrel.

AVR offers little-to-nothing for players who don't like Angels and Demons and aren't playing Human tribal.

I have to admit I was pretty disappointed in the number of Zombies and Wolfir. I was really hoping for a stellar 2 drop for Zombies, and we didn't get much. Was also hoping for a Legendary wolf at mythic, but alas... Also not a huge fan of Angels and Demons so that might be part of the reason I am also underwhelmed.

There's always someone complaining after every full set reveal i guess...
 I agree that there are not enough zombies and wolfs (but the two wolfirs we get are really awesome).

White is really powerful in this set.
Blue gets some really cool stuff to work with.
Black has Griselbrand which is a badass card and a few good kill spells.
Overall red seems to be pretty strong, too.
Green got some really awesome creatures like Wolfir Silverheart, Soul of the harvest, Craterhoof Behemoth, Wolfir Avenger and more,

Overall I think AVR is a great set, lots of good cards and great artwork!

Apr 23, 2012 -- 1:17PM, javert wrote:

Apr 23, 2012 -- 7:28AM, FogRaider wrote:

The only reason I could see for being disappointed in this set is if you exclusively play Black (and don't find the idea of Descendant's Path Zombies interesting.)

As a green player, I'm also disappointed. I guess the land somehow counts for green, but apart from it and maybe Wolfir Avenger that's it. The rest is utter limited filler and the usual "WINMOAR how can't you be excited at the new most fun card ever?!" cards. Even counting with lowered expectations effect of Dark Ascension, this set fails to deliver. It was nice when someone defined this set as the "lucksack matters set". One needs to trace back to Eventide to find a last set this bland.

Eh, I was happier about green than about Black, to be sure. Descendant's path and Wild Defiance both look like fun build-arounds, and the former has real constructed potential IMO. Wolfir Silverheart, Champion of Lambholt and Ulvenwald Tracker all seem interesting too (though I guess most of those are what you're calling win more, given that they're creatures who need other creatures.) Plus Borderland Ranger is back - he's boring, but a cool guy to have available.

If I had to name a color that "won" in AVR though, I think I might pick red. Tons of solid miracles and little dudes, and Zealous Conscripts might be my favorite card in quite some time.

The set as a whole was a miss for me. The flavor disconnect between INN/DKA and AVR is just terrible. Not enough of the flavor from the first two sets of the block is there to really resonate and create the enjoyment I got from INN/DKA. This may have been the case with RoE as well, but I wasn't playing at the time so I cant say for sure.

Now I don't mind the whole Angel vs. Demon theme they have going on with the set, as a matter of fact, I like it. I love seeing more Angel/Demon/Devil cards being printed. I just wish they would have left Innistrad the horror themed block it was and use the Angel vs. Demons theme for a separate block, where the flavor, ideas, and mechanics have the time and support needed to really come together into a successful set.

The mechanics of the set are, in my  opinion, pretty meh.

I actually like Soulbond. It has the ability to be used rather tactfully and adds some more complexity to the game without being confusing.

Miracle, on the other hand, I HATE. I don't believe it will be anywhere near as powerful as people are making it out to be, so my issue isn't there. I just don't like the idea of a mechanic that rewards people for lucky top decks. On top of this, there are very few ways to actually use the mechanic skillfully(like using instant speed draw) and most of the methods of doing so are too much durdle for my taste( Noxious Revival ).

I don't particularly dislike the idea of the loner theme they used for some of the cards, I personally think they could have done a better job on most of the "loner" cards to make the "loner" strategy more viable.

The large amount of enchantments in the set disappoints me as well.

As for power level, there are a few good cards here and there for constructed formats, not a lot, but at least a few that will see play.

On an individual card basis, I don't think I have ever been so polarized on a set before. Half of the cards I absolutely adore, the other half I hate with an UNDYING passion. I have a feeling Sigarda and Riders of Gavony are going to make me want to punch people.

Quick Edit: It seems the devs pushing archetypes on us is going to become a common thing. B/W Tokens didnt exist until DKA created it. Seems with AVR they are pushing R/W Humans.

Miracle: Good, but not sure if the pushed it enough. Some of the cards are really good, but most suck to play for anything other than the miracle cost. Which is extremely disapointing.

Soulbond: I like. There are enough good ones to make some decent combinations, and worth adding to decks. The hexproof and wolfir particularly have some good applications, as do a few other for some decks I run.

Angels and Demons: Never cared for either, and so may of the demons are bad and half the good angels are just unfun and uninteractive.

Flickering and ETB; Love.


Overall the set is fine, and I like it, but I'm not a s thrilled as I wanted to be. I wanted more Wolfir and Gryffs after the build ups, and disappointed about some of the legends that should have had cards but didn't. 

This set had some good ideas but the whole thing feels really rushed to me. Maybe that's just a product of the fact it's a large set, but the fact that it's a large set is their fault.

I was so disappointed by the lack of werewolves. I was lookinf forward to a lot of new ones to buff my deck, and when I heard about the wolfir I was extremely excited because it they can be used to boost each other, and I was hoping to see at least 4-5 more Wolfir cards, and form a nice theme deck. There are only two.

I personally think the wizards did a pretty bad job on this set, however, I think they also made up for it with Innistrad, because that is by far my favorite release so far (so much good black/white stuff!). Oh well, hopefully they'll continue the theme with their next set, and we can get some good stuff there.

The set theme and the way it (supposedly) finished the block were a letdown. The story leaves a bazillion questions as to what is really happening (c'mon WotC, print novels already!) and there is a good bit of unneeded junk in there. However, looking at it as a set of playable cards, you have the typical "commons and uncommons are 90% useless, rares are hit and miss, and the mythics are awesome if played right." The excess of crap in common and uncommon comes from the number of rares and mythics and keeping the percentages good, I figure.

Overall, it isn't a great set, but there are a good bit of usable cards, and those that buy singles will find plenty to purchase. I'm gonna go to the midnight Draft and one, maybe even two, prerelease sealed tourneys, but I enjoy limited play on occasion (and I might open a booster and get something worth the entry fee all at once. At DKA I opened a Sorin and Huntmaster in the same pack!).

I'm not impressed with the story, and the missing wolfir and gryffs is odd if not just annoying, but looking at what there is, the set will work for me in getting some good cards. And I play Magic using cards, not stories, so I'll survive I think.

Apr 23, 2012 -- 4:28PM, lechgame wrote:

The set theme and the way it (supposedly) finished the block were a letdown. The story leaves a bazillion questions as to what is really happening (c'mon WotC, print novels already!) and there is a good bit of unneeded junk in there. However, looking at it as a set of playable cards, you have the typical "commons and uncommons are 90% useless, rares are hit and miss, and the mythics are awesome if played right." The excess of crap in common and uncommon comes from the number of rares and mythics and keeping the percentages good, I figure.

Overall, it isn't a great set, but there are a good bit of usable cards, and those that buy singles will find plenty to purchase. I'm gonna go to the midnight Draft and one, maybe even two, prerelease sealed tourneys, but I enjoy limited play on occasion (and I might open a booster and get something worth the entry fee all at once. At DKA I opened a Sorin and Huntmaster in the same pack!).

I'm not impressed with the story, and the missing wolfir and gryffs is odd if not just annoying, but looking at what there is, the set will work for me in getting some good cards. And I play Magic using cards, not stories, so I'll survive I think.

Agreed, there are a lot of usuable singles in this set, and as a casual gamer this is good. But the whole set doesn't mesh together, as a flavor standpoint it really falls short. They really flopped the wolfir and gryffs, and angels had a good opportunity to become a more playable tribal race, fail. Demons stand alone as always, so thats fine, and storywise they are a receding force anyway with the death of Griselbrand. No one expects devils to be a tribe.

The whole point was supposed to be about the angels, and instead they reprint jank, only usuable in limited (but not even exciting) Archangel , a slot that could have been given to a mythic legendary wolfir, and overflood the place with more humans, which is already the most numerous race in the game.

So fail. This set feels too rushed, and it shows.

Archangel took a white uncommon slot, so it did not take the slot of a mythic legendary wolfir.  Something like Craterhoof Behemoth took that slot.

WOW. So much whining and crying. This set concludes one of, if not possibly the best block they have ever made. I'll have to see how the limited plays, and it's pretty hard for ANYBODY to accurately critique that without playing it, but otherwise it is a hit for me on so many different levels. I am so excited for this. I wanna draft it, I wanna play Standard, I want to shove TONS of cards into my EDH decks, and I just want to look at all the amazing artwork.

Try to focus on the things you like, rather than the things you don't, you'll enjoy yourselves much better. 

Apr 23, 2012 -- 9:19AM, Cogminded wrote:

Miracle just seems . . . Off. MaRo even said that they are relying on the honesty of players to not cheat on it and while you should be able to as a player, a mechanic shouldn't rely on it. I have an issue with soulbond too in that I only get one set with it and I actually adore the concept and I'm literally frothing to play with it

They are not making players rely on the honor system.  If you draw a miracle card and put it into your hand, you can no longer play it.  Example:

I draw a card during my draw step and put it directly into my hand
OH CRAP!! That was a miracle card!!!  FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!! WHY DIDN'T I KEEP IT IN MY HAND!!!! Maybe I can get away with still casting it.
Me: "Uh okay during my draw step I cast this card for it's miracle cost"
Other player: "OH HELL NO!! You put it in your hand you are NOT playing that crap for 1 mana."
Me: "Ok..."
Crap... Oh well, maybe next time I'll THINK about what I'm doing before I do it.


It makes you think about what you are doing with the cards you are drawing, and makes you want to order the top of your deck with such greats as Ponder , Preordain and Sensei's Divining Top .

Also, I agree that there is a distinct drop off in value with the uncommons and commons with the exception of a few GREAT GREAT cards of course.  Yeah, the rares and mythic rares are far and far between and are currently pretty pricey; those are preorder prices.  I forsee 2-3 of these rares getting into the 40-50 dollar range, but that's it.

The others will drop off when their professional and casual use drop off, as they always do.  If you don't think it's fair that you are only getting one card you want from a booster, then just buy the ones you want online and get it over with.

I can't stand when people complain they are only getting one good card, the rare, out of EVERY pack they buy.  If you hate 4/5 of the set then why the hell are you paying 3.99 (or 2.99 in the store I work at) for 15 cards of the newest set, pulling one card out, and ditching the rest?  In the long run, it's way cheaper to pull the trigger on that 15 dollar Vexing Devil on Starcitygames then it is to buy ten packs for 40 bucks, not pull it, then complain.

It's okay not to like this set, believe it or not, this game is mostly about personal preference.  Some people just plain hate certain colors/flavors/strategies.  I myself hate mono/white, vampires, and pure land destruction decks. (Shutters)  But people who complain that the set sucks, STILL buy 100 dollars worth of booster packs when it comes out, and then proceed to complain that they're not pulling anything; it's completely asinine.

One last thing.  Stop complaining about the lack of werewolves and the disapearance of transform cards.  It's all about flavor.  Obviously there's going to be lots of humans.  The set, hell, the block is focused on the humans of Innistrad being overrun by creatures of the night.  The humans, with the aid of Avacyn and the angels, find a way to exist.

To say there are too many humans in this Avacyn Restored, is to say there were too many phyrexians in New Phyrexia, or that there were too many Kavu in Invasion/Apocalypse, OR that there were too many Eldrazi spawn in Rise of Eldrazi.  If the flavor fits, there is NO such thing as too many.

Apr 23, 2012 -- 5:31PM, Groosalugg wrote:

WOW. So much whining and crying...Try to focus on the things you like, rather than the things you don't, you'll enjoy yourselves much better. 

This is a novel concept, though judging by what I read in every thread I've been to (just about), some folks just enjoy whining and crying....

Agree with you 100% though. I enjoy what I can, and don't bother with the chaff.

Apr 23, 2012 -- 9:42AM, Highwayman wrote:

Oh yes, and I am massively disappointed that they didn't reprint halo hunter and a white equivalent Hornslayer. All that yakkity yak in Maro's article about bringing back angel themed cards and they missed this angel vs demon moment. Halo Hunter has one ... ONE SET... to shine in. And they fluffed it.

This is a really good point, but they could be giving angel's their time to shine and print Halo Hunter in M13. At least, that's what I hope they do. I remember loving wizards for printing Halo Hunter until I realized it totally did not kill Baneslayer Angel like I originally thought.

Apr 23, 2012 -- 6:10PM, lechgame wrote:

Apr 23, 2012 -- 5:31PM, Groosalugg wrote:

WOW. So much whining and crying...Try to focus on the things you like, rather than the things you don't, you'll enjoy yourselves much better. 

This is a novel concept, though judging by what I read in every thread I've been to (just about), some folks just enjoy whining and crying....

Agree with you 100% though. I enjoy what I can, and don't bother with the chaff.

*if anything I say ends up being wrong, I will come back and state I am wrong and apologize. This post is not to sound whiney, but just create a critical evaluation of what I see in this set and in current Magic*   
     The problem with focusing on the good and ignoring th bad is when the bad overshadows the good. I'm not going to talk about how much Wizards built up some of the story concepts of Avacyn Restored that they didn't affectively connect into the game. And yes, it doesn't make sense to not have a legendary Werewolf or Wolfir, but it's too late now. Does Wizards read the forums and make decisions based off of their fans comments? I don't know, so sadly, I don't know how much of our complaining about the lack of novels or misdirections in the game design are listened to. I refuse to believe it is necessary to design **** cards to balance out a game, especially for limited. In fact, I don't think overcosting cards or abilities creates any sort of balance, just adds more luck into limited. As does Mythic rares. Someone else mentioned that the mythics shouldn't appear often in limited, but when they do, by god can then take the game. I just drafted 2012 recently, even though I won, a guy pulled a titan and there wasn't much one could do about it once it hit the field. It completely broke the game. With everyone else I played against who didn't pull these type of cards, there was alot of back and forth, strategic planning, and high tension in the game. Once the guy laid the titan on the field, all the tension was on me to possibly draw something (if I even had anything) to deal with it.  To deal with this card and his deck, I completely altered my deck and shifted in my Grave Titan I pulled (maybe I should have playing it myself, but my black pulls were limited otherwise) and the same thing happened to him when I dropped it. By the time he had an answer (Oblivion Ring), I already had five zombie tokens on the field and had a naturalize to respone with. I don't see how these type of cards create any balance in the game, especially limited. I've been out of the game for a few years and just got back in. I remember seeing when the titans were previewed and I though "Oh my god, they don't even care to balance the game any more."
     Granted, Avacyn released doesn't seem to have bombs as powerful as the titans. But I feel, like others have mentioned, the Miracle cards just increase the prevalence of lucky draws in games. Yes, the intent is sort of a risk management task and you could play cards to control the top of your deck, but then with deck control is just seems you get drastically undercosted spells. Though, I have a feeling only a couple will see any constructed play.
     I do feel like white and humans were given and unneccessary large push when they already had alot of support. They of course needed to make something for them, but their support overshadows the rest of the colors and tribes. I understand the way the story was ended, but you can't abandon what you've started for the last set. And the loner creatures are terribly underwhelming and not going to see play. First off, they barely created any to really make it a theme. To me, to make a loner creature that should be the only thing on the field, they have to be powerful. Otherwise, they are too easy to lockdown. Let me review the loners, since it was suppose to be a strong aspect of the set (which is actually not sensible when the first two sets were heavily tribal and then they come back with Soulbond, which only works with multiple creatures):
Fettergeist-3cmc for a 3/4 with Flying...and that's it. It gets quickly expensive if you try to put anything else on the field and trying to have only two Fettergiest's on the field will cost you 2 a turn that could otherwise be spent on control. Yes, a 3/4 with Flying could rack up damage, but is easily controllable by your opponents.
Lone Revenant-5cmc for a 4/4 with Hexproof and a filter ability. This one is not bad, especially with the Hexproof. Of course, it needs some sort of evasion to get through. And with some control decks not running alot of creatures, he may get a little use. But for 5cmc, slightly underwhelming by today's standard. Back in the day, I'd be happy to be able to just put out a 4/4 that my opponent's can't target for 5. Not sure if it will be strong enough for contructed in its current form.
Only two for blue, but let's see how the last three colors faired. But the more I look at these cards, the dumber it seems they even tried this theme in a set with so much Soulbond or tribal type stuff. And from the way they keep talking about AVR, it's more obvious that it ended up being rushed.
Demonic Rising-5cmc for an Enchantment that grants a 5/5 Flying Demon at the end of your turn. Well, it will only trigger once unless you steadily lose creatures every turn. And then if you are out of creatures, it won't activate at all. I could possibly building around it, but it very risky to try to keep it in balance. Also, in a set with so much black and enchantment hate, it will be a pain to keep it around after casting it for 5. It could possibly trigger the turn it is played I imagine.
Demonic Taskmaster-3cmc for a 4/3 Flyer where you must sacrifice your other creatures to keep it in play. Much more playable than blue's Fettergeist. Sadly, it can't be combined with Demonic Rising to get a Demon you can use on your. I guess you could Fling the token. The taskmaster is the best so far, as one can probably utilize the sacrificing for oneself (i.e. Undying, though the creature can't attack when it comes back...)
Homicidal Seclusion-5cmc enchantment that gives your one and only creatures +3/+1 and Lifelink. Very nice bonus, but it's at an expensive slot and again, their exists too many enchantment destruction. I think maybe the enchantment's like this should of had their own type of Undying, or maybe a reduced cost if you only control one creature (and maybe you cannot play another creature this turn).
Predator's Gambit-1cmc enchantment-aura that gives a creature +2/+1 and Intimidate if you control not other creatures. I can only see this played in limited to curve a creature up a bit, and the intimidate could put some pressure on...or they just lock down you one only creature.
Well, black definitely has some better loner cards than blue, but still very risky. But for a set including Barter in Blood and lots of token generators, the loner theme makes even less sense than it originally did. If anything, thematically, the last remaining creatures would be forced to band together to survive, not run off on their own. Granted they are chaotic, but so are goblins.
And it turns out that is all the Loner cards in the set. Only Blue and Black have them. I didn't include Demonlord of Ashmouth as you only have to sacrifice one creature once, and that is hardly a price to pay for for a black 4cmc for a 5/4 with Flying AND Undying.

Well, please respond if you all see something I'm not seeing. I didn't go through and break down the cycle of overcosted commons with the overcosted activated abilities. This post has gotten long enough, I'll wait to continue on. Yes, the set has a few cool and useful cards, but that doesn't save the set as a whole.

The cards are not exactly overcosted. From a generic expansion's point of view yes. But they obviously wanted this format to be slower and newb friendly.

The cost of the cards accomplishes what they wanted to. 

Though I have a feeling the limited environment will get repetitive and bland fast. A bit like coldsnap 

Apr 23, 2012 -- 5:06PM, SleetFox wrote:

Archangel took a white uncommon slot, so it did not take the slot of a mythic legendary wolfir.  Something like Craterhoof Behemoth took that slot.

True, what I meant was that a card slot in general was wasted in reprinting Archangel. Even then I would prefer the behemoth over a jank angel, but oh well at least limited can accept it.

Those those  who try to argue that there is too much whining etc, that's because it is actually valid to complain about the stupidity of the way it was presented. They spent a column describing the creation of the wolfir and the return of the gryff, and there is no actual card of a gryff other than to be a steed for a knight, and only 2 wolfir cards. I wasn't joking either when I earlier posted that humans are the most numerous race in the game. Just type in human into the card subtype in the gatherer and combine that search value with any other race.

Yes, obviously humans made a comeback in the story along with angels, but at least balance it. And my argument against the lack of angel support stands. This was poised to be the set of angels, and instead they seem designed only to cater decks that only need one in particular, or to be slowly cast only in limited.  Herald of War is redundant angel support at a CMC of 5, and the colorless angel land does nothing to support an angel deck.

People argue that angels aren't normally a creature type to go tribal or to have early support, true as that may be, this would have been the set to at least make that different for once. The result is just dull.

Anyway I can honestly still say I will buy both singles and packs anyway because the majority of this set seems to cater casual players. There are a lot of good individual cards, especially ones like Cavern of Souls , Griselbrand , etc. My point was that the set itself didn't fail as a product, just the flavor didn't deliver the way it should have and that's where it failed. Obviously this set is going to make money, and in the end that's what matters I suppose. Still lame, 2 wolfir pfft (and I don't even care about werewolves or have a wolf deck, it just seems stupid to print only 2).

Apr 23, 2012 -- 7:12PM, Burrow wrote:

Apr 23, 2012 -- 9:42AM, Highwayman wrote:

Oh yes, and I am massively disappointed that they didn't reprint halo hunter and a white equivalent Hornslayer. All that yakkity yak in Maro's article about bringing back angel themed cards and they missed this angel vs demon moment. Halo Hunter has one ... ONE SET... to shine in. And they fluffed it.

This is a really good point, but they could be giving angel's their time to shine and print Halo Hunter in M13. At least, that's what I hope they do. I remember loving wizards for printing Halo Hunter until I realized it totally did not kill Baneslayer Angel like I originally thought.

I would love to see Halo Hunter come back, especially in a world without Lightning Bolt . It would actually be very playable.

Apr 23, 2012 -- 5:58PM, AVHer wrote:

If you don't think it's fair that you are only getting one card you want from a booster, then just buy the ones you want online and get it over with.

I can't stand when people complain they are only getting one good card, the rare, out of EVERY pack they buy.  If you hate 4/5 of the set then why the hell are you paying 3.99 (or 2.99 in the store I work at) for 15 cards of the newest set, pulling one card out, and ditching the rest?  In the long run, it's way cheaper to pull the trigger on that 15 dollar Vexing Devil on Starcitygames then it is to buy ten packs for 40 bucks, not pull it, then complain.

It's okay not to like this set, believe it or not, this game is mostly about personal preference.  Some people just plain hate certain colors/flavors/strategies.  I myself hate mono/white, vampires, and pure land destruction decks. (Shutters)  But people who complain that the set sucks, STILL buy 100 dollars worth of booster packs when it comes out, and then proceed to complain that they're not pulling anything; it's completely asinine.

You apparently did not read what I wrote. I'm not going to buy boosters from this set. I am not going to draft from this set. And I'm definitely not going to pay Mythic Rare prices for singles from this set. Wizards had a perfect opportunity to get me back into the game, and they blew it.

Apr 23, 2012 -- 7:31PM, phaseshifter wrote:

The cards are not exactly overcosted. From a generic expansion's point of view yes. But they obviously wanted this format to be slower and newb friendly.

If they wanted the set to be newb friendly, they should have made more Commons and Uncommons that newbs would enjoy.

For a while, I was upset about what black got, that is, ****. Then I got over it. Then I saw that they reprinted Angel's Mercy . What the ****?

All 'bout the dolla dolla bill y'all.

Gotta get them dollars and cents.

Why fill the set with all new and exciting cards when you can fill it with just the right amount of new and exciting (or old and overdone in a new and exciting shell) and save some of those sweet ideas for a future set called "[Insert Synonym for Return Here] [Insert Preposition such as "to" Here] [Insert Plane Name Here]".

Not saying it's a bad thing, nor am I saying you can please everyone. Really I just wanted allude to the Wu-Tang Clan.

Actually Thatcher Revolt is a decent thing that was added for vampires come to think of it.

In particular they combo nice with Falkenrath Aristocrat and I guess Falkenrath Torturer ...

Apr 23, 2012 -- 10:34PM, rulesinquisitor wrote:

For a while, I was upset about what black got, that is, ****. Then I got over it. Then I saw that they reprinted Angel's Mercy . What the ****?

This. Only card I am really bummed about.

Black is my favorite color in the color pie but I don't feel screwed in this set. At heart I am a Spike/Vorthos and this whole block has been a flavor fest for me. Add in some tastey constructed bits and I've enjoyed this set more than I did DKA.

The lack of constructed playable commons and uncommons hurts this set a lot. If you look at good blocks like Oddysey, Lorwyn, Ravnica etc, a very big chunk of commons and uncommons were seeing play in good decks. Even Dark Ascension had some decent non-rares as did Innistrad, but this set feels pretty poor for that. Do you like Flicker? If no, then non-rares aren't going to do anything for you.

It's all very well that they keep saving design space for later on, but it would be nice if we got to see this design space instead of gettting the same crap all the time. Innistrad and AVR are polar opposites in terms of set design, going from fantastic to one of the worst sets I've seen(OK, I probably wil enjoy it more than homelands, but I'd prefer playing Kami block again to this)

There are a few that should see play, maybe not as many the last two sets though.

In the first week of the the reveal I thought, "wow...they are revealing a lot of mythics and badass rares early on..." Now I understand why....that's all they had to show. I loved INN but deff feel let down here...when will they support a new mechanic all the way through a block? It's like an evil tease!

I read your post.  I was simply saying that in general, people who complain about a set, go out and buy a crap ton of it anyways.  If I was directing that statement at you, I would have specified that I was doing that.  I kinda just got on a rant and kept going with it.  Sorry, I should have specified that I was talking about magic players in general.

Apr 24, 2012 -- 2:32AM, CyrusBales wrote:

Do you like Flicker? If no, then non-rares aren't going to do anything for you.

This.

Flicker is one of my favorite ways to play, partly because I love playing the phases, and partly because I enjoy pissing people off; I'm a troll at heart.  Well I only troll players with my exile deck when they get high and mighty on their all aggro deck and act like they are **** of the walk.

But you hit the nail on the head.  If you like to play with the concept of blinking permanents for their ETB abilities, then this set will really boost your decks.  Luckily for me, this set will really boost my decks AND my collection, so it's a win-win for me. ^^

It was never advertised as angel tribal.

Also, don't buy boosters.

It wasn't advertised as such but angel tribal is a very understandable thing to expect.

Apr 24, 2012 -- 11:40AM, SleetFox wrote:

It wasn't advertised as such but angel tribal is a very understandable thing to expect.

This is the set with the most angels in it unless I miss my guess, and only the 2nd one with a common angel printed on purpose.

Also, it has a card that speciically reduces the cost of angels.  I don't think it was unrealistic to expect angel tribal.

I think the idea is Human/Angel tribal, hence Herald Of War's ability.

I'm confused about the tribal complaints. Are people complaining about there being not enough Angel, or too much Angel? Because I saw the full visual spoiler and there was a bunch of angel tribal stuff in it.

Unless people are defining "tribal" as "there exists a thing that gives +1/+1 to things of that thing", and since when have angels needed to be bigger? "Dammit this sucks. When are dragons and sphinxes going to get their +1/+1 lord?"

Apr 24, 2012 -- 1:56PM, Minus_Prime wrote:

I'm confused about the tribal complaints. Are people complaining about there being not enough Angel, or too much Angel? Because I saw the full visual spoiler and there was a bunch of angel tribal stuff in it.

Unless people are defining "tribal" as "there exists a thing that gives +1/+1 to things of that thing", and since when have angels needed to be bigger? "Dammit this sucks. When are dragons and sphinxes going to get their +1/+1 lord?"

The problem is there are very few angels with CMC 1-4 in this set and in general.  They make a bunch of angels but make them still cost too much to make a valid tribal angel deck.  It has to be combined with the low cost human creatures to have any sort of effect.

I am not particularly interested in angel tribal but this could be one of the complaints about it.

I can understand thinking that this set would introduce some Angel tribal stuff, I was hoping for at least one Devil captain/lord. But, I honestly don't think Angel needed tribal support, since Angels have some of the most undercosted, powerful cards as it is. They even created  an angel focused sorcery, Defy Death , to reaanimate them. And as I recall, but big angels were already big focuses of reanimation decks. Not sure they needed this boost. Defy Death will probably definitely be of great use in limited.

I kind of wished they could pushed the tribal hard in this set like the last two for Innistrad. I realize they wanted to alter the feel of the set, but they could have altered it and still kept the tribal feel. Instead, they boosted the human tribe, who needed it oooh so much, and then create a variety of anti-vampire and zombie cards. With the rise of good and order, the creatures of chaos and evil would have to either band together or fight back even harder, maybe learn how to be even stealthier and/or deceptive to react to the overwhelming forces at hand. Maybe something similar to Morph or Traps, where the creatures wait to strike. I actually love the idea of this. Sample card (has to be a Devil since they are my favorite tribe of the set):
Forge Snatcher (2)(r)(r) 2/3: Ambush (1)(r)(r) [Whenever a creature an opponent controls attacks, you may play Forge Snatcher as if it had Flash for its Ambush cost], When Forge Snatcher enters the battlefield, gain control of target non-creature artifact.

Just an idea. I'm not sure if they have ever done something like, though I like the idea. Maybe their could be other triggers for it. Or keep it simple a put Flash on come creatures that have ETB abilities that are situational. I know we could go on and on about things we would have liked to see different.

Really bad that Angels and Humans could have gotten closer together. Angels could have had some abilities or CMC reduction by tapping Humans. Like a prayer thing.

What would exactly a Legendary Wererolf be? A legendary pack of them or the original Werewolf zero.

Apr 24, 2012 -- 2:06PM, GreenBuster wrote:

Apr 24, 2012 -- 1:56PM, Minus_Prime wrote:

I'm confused about the tribal complaints. Are people complaining about there being not enough Angel, or too much Angel? Because I saw the full visual spoiler and there was a bunch of angel tribal stuff in it.

Unless people are defining "tribal" as "there exists a thing that gives +1/+1 to things of that thing", and since when have angels needed to be bigger? "Dammit this sucks. When are dragons and sphinxes going to get their +1/+1 lord?"

The problem is there are very few angels with CMC 1-4 in this set and in general.  They make a bunch of angels but make them still cost too much to make a valid tribal angel deck.  It has to be combined with the low cost human creatures to have any sort of effect.

I am not particularly interested in angel tribal but this could be one of the complaints about it.

If they had trouble making a low cost Angel, it could have some simple like this:
Young Seraph (1)(w) Creature-Angel 1/2: As long as Young Seraph is enchanted, it gains Flying and +1/+1.
Aurablessed Angel (2)(w) Creature-Angel Soldier 2/2: Flying, Aurablessed Angel costs (1) less for each Enchantment you control.

Angels seem to be commonly linked to enchantments so these seems like they would work. They could have put one less human into it for these.

Edit-If they really wanted to 1cmc flyer, they could have either went the way of a suntail hawk vanilla flyer or maybe an angel with either an additional cost to play or a back to hand penalty. Example:
The Blessed Shield (w) Creature-Angel 1/1 or 0/1: Flash, Flying, When The Blessed Shield enters the battlefield, return target creature you control to its owner's hand.

Apr 24, 2012 -- 2:24PM, Singe wrote:

Really bad that Angels and Humans could have gotten closer together. Angels could have had some abilities or CMC reduction by tapping Humans. Like a prayer thing.

What would exactly a Legendary Wererolf be? A legendary pack of them or the original Werewolf zero.

Wolf zero, I like that. He could not only have a lord like ability (+1/+1 to Werewolves) but he could also have these two types of abilities: Gain control of target Werewolf and Target creature becomes a Werewolf in addition to its other types. Could pull on the whole spreading of the curse idea.

There were at least three potential characters in line for "legendary Werewolf" status

Skahaara, Leeraug Alpha
Tovolar, Mondronen Alpha
Ulrich, Krallenhorde Alpha

Apr 24, 2012 -- 2:24PM, Singe wrote:

Really bad that Angels and Humans could have gotten closer together. Angels could have had some abilities or CMC reduction by tapping Humans. Like a prayer thing.

What would exactly a Legendary Wererolf be? A legendary pack of them or the original Werewolf zero.

Prayer as a  'Tap _ untapped humans you control' mechanic on angels would have been very cool.

especially if one or two demons/devils got it as well.  could have thrown black a bone 

Apr 24, 2012 -- 2:52PM, etcetera wrote:

Apr 24, 2012 -- 2:24PM, Singe wrote:

Really bad that Angels and Humans could have gotten closer together. Angels could have had some abilities or CMC reduction by tapping Humans. Like a prayer thing.

What would exactly a Legendary Wererolf be? A legendary pack of them or the original Werewolf zero.

Prayer as a  'Tap _ untapped humans you control' mechanic on angels would have been very cool.

especially if one or two demons/devils got it as well.  could have thrown black a bone 

Really cool idea, much better than Miracle. I like the idea of having it on both sides, for the cult of Skirsdag or something. Could even have just one in each of the other colors for the few humans who were still split, like the creators of the blue zombies (the Skaab), the servants of the vampires, or the humans who were actually drawn to the vicious nature of the werewolves. The whole blanket idea of the cursemute isn't sensible unless Avacyn can/also remove free will. There would still be some humans who would oppose, just as their had before.

Innistrad Werewolves are (were?) not infected so there would be no Wolf Zero -- however, the leaders of the major Howlpacks were described in STF articles, so a lot of people were hoping at least one would reach the cards

there are currently four two-drop angels (and no one drops).  Sustaining Spirit is kind of useless for angel tribal, but Angelic Page , Angelic Curator , and Serra Avenger are all fine choices  Three Drops are badly scarce, and 4+ of course explodes in number.  We really could have done with a few cheap angels.  A good two and a couple good threes and I would have been happy.  If there was an angelic 1-drop I'd be ecstatic, even if it was a functional reprint of Suntail Hawk .  I think that this is the only real dissappointment for me from Avacyn Restored.


Other possible sources of dissappointment

"Black Sucks!": Okay, Avacyn Restored doesn't offer much in the way of obvious black powerhouses, but there's certainly some fun stuff in this set for it.  My favorite card in the set is black, and there are a number of other black cards just waiting to be broken.  Really, black's offerings are more amusing to a casual Johnny like me than the "stop havign fun angels" like Jubilation, Sigarda, and Avacyn.

"No mythic werewolf legend?": That ship sailed with Dark Ascension.  I'd have liked to see one, but Huntmaster of the Fells is what killed it, not Avacyn Restored.

"Limited is gonna suck.": I'll believe this when I've experienced it.  The last time I ran into a poor limited format was Ravnica block and most people seem to like that, though I wonder if it's not so much a taste for the environment as it is affection for the cards that came out of it.  the FFL tends to do a good job for us.

My only complaint with the set is that werewolves weren't continued at all. I would have prefered the wolfir to be werewolves instead of wolf warriors.

Otherwise I'm loving this set!

Apr 24, 2012 -- 2:06PM, GreenBuster wrote:

Apr 24, 2012 -- 1:56PM, Minus_Prime wrote:

I'm confused about the tribal complaints. Are people complaining about there being not enough Angel, or too much Angel? Because I saw the full visual spoiler and there was a bunch of angel tribal stuff in it.

Unless people are defining "tribal" as "there exists a thing that gives +1/+1 to things of that thing", and since when have angels needed to be bigger? "Dammit this sucks. When are dragons and sphinxes going to get their +1/+1 lord?"

The problem is there are very few angels with CMC 1-4 in this set and in general.  They make a bunch of angels but make them still cost too much to make a valid tribal angel deck.  It has to be combined with the low cost human creatures to have any sort of effect.

I am not particularly interested in angel tribal but this could be one of the complaints about it.

Thing is, they're already strething the rule about angels. They weren't supposed to make common angels, or cheap ones. Up to now, the only ones that existed were accidents.

Ok so I was dissapointed because MaRo stated they didn't want to do like they did with worldwake but they did.

The only mechanic that returned was undying, while yes I like the mechanic I liked the feel of the other two sets in the block.

They pretty much took a great theme and obliderated it into something new...

I don't hate this set, I've seen and played in worse limited. It just doesn't live up to the rest of the block and the fun it brought.

People need to stop complaining about the set not having much for werewolves.   It's like complaining that there wern't any Trade Federation Droids on the forest moon, Endor in Return of the Jedi.  If you want to complain about anything, then complain about innistrad being liberated by Avacyn, that's the only reason werewolves weren't helped.  Why would they strengthen a tribe during a set that is dedicated to the story of their demise? (or at least the story of their temporary defeat)

I love zombies, but you wont see me complaining that they weren't really given much help in Avacyn Restored.  They got their love in the Innistrad and Dark Ascension sets, respectively.

Now, I would complain about the lack of Ally creatures in Rise of Eldrazi.  Do you know why?  Because story-wise, there is no reason for them to be missing from the set.  If you believe or know otherwise, then let me know.

You know what else they missed?

Demons with Human Offering

Just saying. It's an otherwise dud mechanic but would actually fit here flavour and mechanic-wise.
  

I am both excited and disappointed about the amount of angels in this set. They're all so awesome, but they might just set me back money-wise.

I agree with the posters who are saddened by the lack of werewolves/wolfir/whateverthehelltheyare. It reminds me of ROE, how they got rid of allies and were just like, "HEY! ELDRAZI GO BOOOOOM!!!!" It's ZEN block all over again.

In the same sense, every tribe other than humans, angels, and demons got the shaft...and even the demons are meh. (I actually like how they designed the demons in this set. The whole "power at a price" mentality seems pretty cool. I'm just not one of those kinds of players, though.)

Of all the cards I want, 4 are mythic rare, 21 are rare, 7 are uncommon, and 8 are common. All of the mythics and most of the rares are angels, so I'll only need to buy 1 of each of them. The point I'm trying to make is that there are plenty of chase rares, and few (un)commons that are worth anything to me, so I probably won't be buying a box.

Oh, and I should say 20 rares, I accidentially wrote down cavern of souls .

Apr 24, 2012 -- 1:56PM, Minus_Prime wrote:

I'm confused about the tribal complaints. Are people complaining about there being not enough Angel, or too much Angel? Because I saw the full visual spoiler and there was a bunch of angel tribal stuff in it.

I'm complaining about there being not enough Angel in White.

Here's my basic idea:
- Less humans because Dark Ascension decimated their numbers.
- Support for Angel tribal, including commons and uncommons (so you can actually find enough Angels to fill a deck) and low cost Angels (first responders with Defender, if need be, to hold the line until the other Angels show up).

Apr 24, 2012 -- 2:27PM, KingOfOdonata wrote:

Wolf zero, I like that. He could not only have a lord like ability (+1/+1 to Werewolves) but he could also have these two types of abilities: Gain control of target Werewolf and Target creature becomes a Werewolf in addition to its other types. Could pull on the whole spreading of the curse idea.

I think making it just another Memnarch would detract from the character. If you wanted to do this, I'd suggest "When ~ fights or deals combat damage to another creature, at the beginning of the end step it becomes a Werewolf in addition to its other types."

Apr 24, 2012 -- 3:46PM, phaseshifter wrote:

Thing is, they're already strething the rule about angels. They weren't supposed to make common angels, or cheap ones. Up to now, the only ones that existed were accidents.

Really? That's where you draw the line? Magic cards are supposed to have the standard Deckmaster backs, but that didn't stop them making DFCs this block. If you were talking about a core set you'd have a point, but this is a non-core set where it is a deliberate plot point that both Angels and Demons are in abundance. You could almost say they were common.

Herald of War (the only card that literally screams Angel Tribal) probably would have been halfway decent if it had a cmc of 4 instead of 5, or at least had haste. Typically you want your cost reducers to have an immediate effect, not be only effective in a ramp deck, where... ya know.. you can just ramp into more stuff and the cost reducing effect is just win more at that point. If your Herald survives long enough to have a huge cost reducing effect, chances are you are winning the race in damage with a 5+ flyer anyway.

I guess the fact that you reduce both Humans and Angels could potentially allow you to drop your hand of both creature type, but I'm still wondering how strong a Human and Angel Hybrid Tribal deck really is when you split your focus like that.

I really don't like this set. I'm running tokens, and what did i get? At most I'm running 1-2 lambholt elders from this set and that's about it. (Granted dka and isd gave me great tokens but this set gave at most 4 cards to any deck)

During sopilers i thought this would be a super fun and splashy set all around, but right about the time after tibalt was spoiled the rest was useless trash for the most part.

The mythics in this set kind of annoy me. the three multicolored angels appearing from nowhere should have been a wolfir mythic and some other lowercosted fun stuff. granted the whole angels vs demons thing is big here but i just don't like them. (sigarda, gisela, and bruna or whatever).

overall the mythics are rediculously expensive (1 at 10cmc, 3-4 at 8cmc, and like 3 at 7cmc!)
i like the rares for the most part but you won't find me opening very many packs.
the uncommons and commons really bore me. i can't even name one.
  
I started playing at the start of alara, and this is the most boring set ive seen since i started.

I think we could all go on and on about our dislikes for this set, but I'm getting tired of typing now.
        
Overall i guess if you aren't looking for flicker effects, w/x human decks, angel/demon tribal, or overcosted win-more mythics, this set is not for you.

Apr 25, 2012 -- 5:09PM, GracefulAssassin14 wrote:

I really don't like this set. I'm running tokens, and what did i get? At most I'm running 1-2 lambholt elders from this set and that's about it. (Granted dka and isd gave me great tokens but this set gave at most 4 cards to any deck)

During sopilers i thought this would be a super fun and splashy set all around, but right about the time after tibalt was spoiled the rest was useless trash for the most part.

The mythics in this set kind of annoy me. the three multicolored angels appearing from nowhere should have been a wolfir mythic and some other lowercosted fun stuff. granted the whole angels vs demons thing is big here but i just don't like them. (sigarda, gisela, and bruna or whatever).

overall the mythics are rediculously expensive (1 at 10cmc, 3-4 at 8cmc, and like 3 at 7cmc!)
i like the rares for the most part but you won't find me opening very many packs.
the uncommons and commons really bore me. i can't even name one.
  
I started playing at the start of alara, and this is the most boring set ive seen since i started.

I think we could all go on and on about our dislikes for this set, but I'm getting tired of typing now.
        
Overall i guess if you aren't looking for flicker effects, w/x human decks, angel/demon tribal, or overcosted win-more mythics, this set is not for you.

Tokens got a lot.  It's just mostly human tokens.

Also the reason there's so many expensive mythic rares is because of miracles.  If we exclude miracles and X spells, we get 4 at 5 mana, 3 at 8 mana, and 1 each at 2, 4, 6, 7 and 10.  That's fairly top-heavy but mythic rares always are.  If we include miracles by their miracle costs, the mythics are fairly cheap, relatively speaking.

Yeah but red tokens doesn't really fit anywhere. 
 
Your right about the mythics, but i think the ones from this set out-cost isd and dka's mythics. especially since they all aren't mono-colored.

Apr 25, 2012 -- 7:01PM, GracefulAssassin14 wrote:

Yeah but red tokens doesn't really fit anywhere. 
 
Your right about the mythics, but i think the ones from this set out-cost isd and dka's mythics. especially since they all aren't mono-colored.

I disagree about red tokens; Hellrider paved the way for them.

R/W Tokens is definitely a thing.

Well now it will be. I didn't specify but i meant gw tokens

Personally I've been generally unimpressed by the value of most of these cards in Standard.

Exceptions:Lands
Loothouse -- obviously good
Tribal owns your soul -- obviously good
Save 2 mana on wolf-run for 2 activations -- obviously good

Exception: Planeswalkers
I expect both to be medium power-level planeswalkers, which means both will show up in constructed

Those out of the way....

Miracles:

Most of them seem pretty unplayable due to their non-miracle cost.  Flores might be right that there'll be a miracles.dec, where it doesn't lose consistency because it's always drawing a miracle, but...I dunno.

Big mythic angels

Avacyn is not all that unkillable--between O-ring, tragic slip, tapping effects, and vapor snag in the format...yeah.
Blossom is kind of like Avacyn, except dies to everything, including doom blade, go for the throat, and Dismember
Bubbles.......might be a sleeper.  I don't think Sovereigns of Lost Alara did much until Conscription was printed, for comparsion purposes.  But...yeah, right now her enchantment options are like...angelic destiny?  No.
Buttercup: Ok, she's kind-of eye-popping at first glance, but let's take a step back here.  You're in green anyway; do you play her or Thrun, the Last Troll ?  Thrun can't be countered, regenerates through DoJ, and only requires one colour, whereas she stops sacrifice effects and flies. 

Various cards Flores called out

Cursebreak--ok, so it's Divine Offering for enchantments.  Problem is, even when we're not coming off an artifact block, enchantments tend to be less common than artifacts.  And more to the point...even if it is better.....so what?  Wow, what a wildly different meta.

Restoration Angel: I actually can't think of that many constructed-playable creatures with CIP effects.  I mean, sure, snapcaster, but snapcaster's effect is less useful on a four-mana creature.

Righteous Blow: no.  Remember Harm's Way ?  Yeah, I had forgotten what that card was even called.

Favourable Winds: ok sure.  Provide another 2-mana pump enchantment to tokens.dec, but a less impressive one.

Fettergeist: Haven't they printed 3/3 flyers for 3 with no downside and some additional upsides?

Lone Revnant: Hm....maybe.  Might need a new archetype, though.

Outwit: Maybe it will be marginally better than negate if there's some very specific format....

Apetite for Brains: Only in standard, only in the sideboard (if at all), and only if the meta is right.

Demonic Taskmaster: yeah, similar feelings to Fettergeist here.  A vanilla, slightly above-curve flyer with significant downsides.

Griselbrand: Sure; solid reanimator target.

Human frailty:   Maybe in some standard sideboards briefly.

Falkenrath Exterminator: ehhhh....I like Spikeshot Elder partially because it's a 1-drop.

Maglinus: WTF no, Flores.

Tyrant of Discord: 7 mana spells should win you the game; this...only sometimes does, sometimes fizzles.

Vexing Devil: I've already posted about how I feel it's mildly inferior to Lava Spike overall.  And yeah, yeah, "legacy burn" I know, but...I just don't consider Lava Spike a good card, legacy burn or not.

Borderland Ranger: It'll be a constructed B-lister, like it always has been.

Wolfir Avenger: Might see a medium amount of play.  I generally feel Flash is inferior to Haste, and 2 mana regeneration on an otherwise vanilla 3/3 is a so-so use of mana.  Which is to say, it's no Boggart Ram-Gang .  But that's not completely damning; Boggart Ram Gang is good.

Wolfir Silverheart: Yeah, probably a decent card, just because 12 power for 5 mana is actually quite a bit.  Still, though, vanilla, no-evasion, no protection, extra vulnerability due to frailty of soulbond partner.  I don't think it'll have the impact that Baneslayer did (being the reminiscent of "big rare and basically vanilla, but....actually that's really, really big.")

Some of the miracles are worth their regular cost. Reforge The Soul and Bonfire Of The Damned are for sure.

This set has tons of enters the battlefield effects (just like Standard had beforehand) and auras.

Apr 26, 2012 -- 10:20PM, IAmKingTony wrote:

Some of the miracles are worth their regular cost. Reforge The Soul and Bonfire Of The Damned are for sure.

I don't agree with either of those.

Reforge the soul is 5 mana for "both players toss their hand and draw 7".   They've been doing that for two years and it's seen zero play.

Bonfire of the Damned...well X spells are always tricky but...

X=1: 3 mana for a sorcery speed Simoon .
X=2: 5 mana for basically Massacre Wurm 's etb
X=3: 7 mana for...a one sided Slagstorm .  You could get Elesh Norn for this much mana.

Yeah, one-sidedness is nice and all, but there's a reason Day of Judgement is better than Plague Wind .  If you have that much mana for a sweeper, then you're probably a more controlling deck anyway, so don't really mind destroying all creatures instead of just your opponent's creatures.

This set has tons of enters the battlefield effects (just like Standard had beforehand) and auras.

Like what, though?  I'm struggling to think of a Wall of Blossoms style creature that is constructed playable and draws you a card when you flicker it (let alone one that draws you two like Muldrifter did last time blink was a real strategy).  The best flicker targets I'm coming up with below six mana would be like... Blade Splicer and Huntsmaster of the Fells , which are both quite solid to flicker, but probably not enough support to build a deck around.  At 6 mana...well sure, there's value in flickering your Titan, but as far as "cards to cast after you've cast a titan" how about a second Titan?  Or a clone?

Not that Restoration Angel is necessarily unplayable if there isn't a flicker deck--it could still be useful just as a counter to removal spells. 

I’m disappointed, but I can’t fault Wizards for it. Then again, I’ve had a chip on my shoulder since Wizards decided not to print Phyrexian Arena in New Phyrexia. Magic seems to be increasing in popularity and it’s because of creature-driven mechanics in sets like Lorwynn and Innistrad. I am a control player; my favorite decks are creatureless. Seeing all these new creatures gives me two distinct feelings: 1) Ugh, everything feels agro-friendly. I thought this wasn’t a tribal block…; and 2) at any 5-6+ drop I’d rather play a Titan.

Cavern of Souls p***** me off to no end, I have to re-tool every deck I play in every format. I would have rather seen a ban on Snapcaster or Mana Leak than see this land get printed. Draw-Go everywhere is close to dead now. Still, I am most excited about the lands in this set.

 I don’t feel like there is anything interesting for me to flicker- at least, for my playstyle. Tower Geist…? I guess I can blink Snapcaster to ponder or something…?

As for flavor, I’m more into Lovecraftian horror than Gothic. The Eldrazi were more akin to what horror looks like to me. Maybe it’s the culture shock from all these ridiculous Hollywood vampire/werewolf stories.

This set looks all kinds of fun in Limited.

Apr 27, 2012 -- 6:41AM, metroidcomposite wrote:

Like what, though?  I'm struggling to think of a Wall of Blossoms style creature that is constructed playable and draws you a card when you flicker it (let alone one that draws you two like Muldrifter did last time blink was a real strategy).  The best flicker targets I'm coming up with below six mana would be like... Blade Splicer and Huntsmaster of the Fells , which are both quite solid to flicker, but probably not enough support to build a deck around.  At 6 mana...well sure, there's value in flickering your Titan, but as far as "cards to cast after you've cast a titan" how about a second Titan?  Or a clone?

Not that Restoration Angel is necessarily unplayable if there isn't a flicker deck--it could still be useful just as a counter to removal spells. 

Tower Geist , Phyrexian Rager

More expensive than Wall, sure, but maybe there's a deck there somewhere? 

Apr 27, 2012 -- 6:41AM, metroidcomposite wrote:

Reforge the soul is 5 mana for "both players toss their hand and draw 7".   They've been doing that for two years and it's seen zero play.

Perhaps it saw zero play because there was no miracle option.  Keep in mind that while a miracle cost can't be treated like the only cost, it is a bonus.  Reforge the Soul is better than Time Reversal and it has the miracle to thank for that.

Apr 27, 2012 -- 6:41AM, metroidcomposite wrote:

Bonfire of the Damned...well X spells are always tricky but...

X=1: 3 mana for a sorcery speed Simoon .
X=2: 5 mana for basically Massacre Wurm 's etb
X=3: 7 mana for...a one sided Slagstorm .  You could get Elesh Norn for this much mana.

Yeah, one-sidedness is nice and all, but there's a reason Day of Judgement is better than Plague Wind .  If you have that much mana for a sweeper, then you're probably a more controlling deck anyway, so don't really mind destroying all creatures instead of just your opponent's creatures.

The thing you're missing is it can be all of those cards.  Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is a dead card if you don't have 7 mana or a way to get her out of the graveyard.  Pyroclasm is (almost) worthless if they don't have anything 2 toughness or below.  When you're given a choice, that makes the card better than just the average of the options.  Likewise, when your opponent gets a choice, the card gets worse than the average of the options, which is why Vexing Devil isn't overpowered.

Additionally, you're forgetting the miracle.  Unless you're getting land screwed, this thing is lethal to anything but creature-light decks if you draw it.  You'll almost always want to tap for it since it wipes their board and burns their face.  And if they don't have any creatures out, just hold onto it and you can probably sweep a few later.  Bonfire of the Damned is an amazing burn spell because it gives you a ton of options.  Don't just look at the individual pieces and compare them to static cards.

Apr 27, 2012 -- 6:41AM, metroidcomposite wrote:

Like what, though?  I'm struggling to think of a Wall of Blossoms style creature that is constructed playable and draws you a card when you flicker it (let alone one that draws you two like Muldrifter did last time blink was a real strategy).  The best flicker targets I'm coming up with below six mana would be like... Blade Splicer and Huntsmaster of the Fells , which are both quite solid to flicker, but probably not enough support to build a deck around.  At 6 mana...well sure, there's value in flickering your Titan, but as far as "cards to cast after you've cast a titan" how about a second Titan?  Or a clone?

Not that Restoration Angel is necessarily unplayable if there isn't a flicker deck--it could still be useful just as a counter to removal spells. 

Soulbond creatures.  Blade Splicer and Huntmaster of the Fells , as you've said.  There's also Stonehorn Dignitary , who can't be ignored.

Restoration Angel is an amazing card that doesn't even need a flicker deck.  It can save a creature from removal, it can be a combat trick, and it's just generally an efficient creature.

I didn't like a lot of the set until I took a 2nd glance. Everyone needs to step back and change perspective a bit.

Remember when the game use to be fun?

I think Limited will be much more fun than people think... and I've already found a few very strong tactics for this set. I'm not saying you have to like it, but give it another glance over and see some of the exciting things the cards can do!

Things to do with flicker...

1) Be a little more loose with lockdown guys such as Fiend Hunter , Dungeon Geists , and on a lesser level Leonin Relic-Warder . You can use Fiend Hunter on an early threat but then when they've moved on to dropping bigger bombs, you can flicker him and change targets to their new creature. Hell if you have a Fiend Hunter and two Cloudshift in hand, you can exile three of their creatures for 5 mana and they can only get one of those back.

2) Repeat/abuse other ETB effects such as Geist-Honored Monk , Acidic Slime , the Exarchs, Priest Of Urabrask (this one seems particularly interesting), Sunblast Angel , Trinket/Treasure Mage... black has a very nice ones but they're on black-intensive cards (Massacre Wurm, Skinrender, etc)

Warstorm Surge seems like an interesting thing to toy around with.

Apr 23, 2012 -- 6:59AM, Grumman wrote:

Despite being out of Magic since Lorwyn, I was planning on coming back for Avacyn Restored. I might have missed Bant and Zendikar but a set about the return of an angel and her kin promised to have a ton of cards I'd love to collect.

Apparently not.

There are cards I like, to be sure, but it killed my enthusiasm when I realised 1/3 are commons and uncommons, 1/3 are rare and 1/3 are mythic rare. Why would I buy a booster pack to maybe get a single card I want? Why would I buy the Angelic Might preconstructed deck when the rarities suggest most of it will still be Humans?

My complaint is not that there are cards I'd like that are Rare or Mythic Rare. My complaint is that the entire tribe is so top heavy that I feel like there is no consolation prize if I get a different one.

The first half of your post made sense in the sense that i read and understood what you meant but it didnt make sense because if your buying boosters your not trying to get 1 specific card thats what singles from your card shop are for

also that last paragraph made 0 sense to me how is the set top heavy? what does that even mean?

either way your point is fagile, flimsy and poor at best

By top heavy he means it has a generally high mana curve.

Apr 26, 2012 -- 4:16AM, GracefulAssassin14 wrote:

Well now it will be. I didn't specify but i meant gw tokens

Are you going to evaluate every set by how it improves GW tokens and by the cost of its Mythics?  That seems like very narrow criteria to judge a set by!

The set did drop the ball on the whole Wolfir. Getting only 2 was bad.
Some Werewolves could have dipped their toes into Black like their previous ancestors.

Even an Enchantment that could curse a Human with Werewolf.

Aside from my disappointments with it tying into the rest of the block, I'm refraining full judgement until I play limited a couple of times.
Would still have rather had it be AVR/DKA/INN draft regardless. Maybe I can talk some people into playing that.

Apr 24, 2012 -- 5:35PM, AVHer wrote:

Now, I would complain about the lack of Ally creatures in Rise of Eldrazi.  Do you know why?  Because story-wise, there is no reason for them to be missing from the set.  If you believe or know otherwise, then let me know.

Since the set (ROE) was meant to be drafted alone, it would have taken too many card slots to give Allies the suport they needed, which would have hurt the other themes of the set, like big butts and levelers ...

Apr 27, 2012 -- 1:11PM, kyral wrote:

The first half of your post made sense in the sense that i read and understood what you meant but it didnt make sense because if your buying boosters your not trying to get 1 specific card thats what singles from your card shop are for

I'm not paying Mythic Rare prices for singles.

also that last paragraph made 0 sense to me how is the set top heavy? what does that even mean?

I said tribe, not set. And it means the creature type that I wanted to make a tribal deck for - Angels - does not have enough commons and uncommons to make that a practical option.

Apr 27, 2012 -- 9:49AM, WiseGreen wrote:

Apr 27, 2012 -- 6:41AM, metroidcomposite wrote:

Like what, though?  I'm struggling to think of a Wall of Blossoms style creature that is constructed playable and draws you a card when you flicker it (let alone one that draws you two like Muldrifter did last time blink was a real strategy).  The best flicker targets I'm coming up with below six mana would be like... Blade Splicer and Huntsmaster of the Fells , which are both quite solid to flicker, but probably not enough support to build a deck around.  At 6 mana...well sure, there's value in flickering your Titan, but as far as "cards to cast after you've cast a titan" how about a second Titan?  Or a clone?

Not that Restoration Angel is necessarily unplayable if there isn't a flicker deck--it could still be useful just as a counter to removal spells. 

Tower Geist , Phyrexian Rager

More expensive than Wall, sure, but maybe there's a deck there somewhere? 

Play Standard much?  God, I hate Standard.

Apr 27, 2012 -- 3:16PM, dslatimore wrote:

Apr 26, 2012 -- 4:16AM, GracefulAssassin14 wrote:

Well now it will be. I didn't specify but i meant gw tokens

Are you going to evaluate every set by how it improves GW tokens and by the cost of its Mythics?  That seems like very narrow criteria to judge a set by!

no. no I am not. i was looking forward to more exciting mythics and more stuff for my deck. just because i got nothing doesn't mean the set blows, even though i still don't like it overall. The thread is DISSAPPOINTMENTS with avr not judgement.

I really like what this set will do for Standard and EDH, but I have no interest in limited.  If the prerelease is any indication, mono-blue or heavy Soulbond are the only two ways to go.  This is mainly because of the paltry options for removal. 

Apr 27, 2012 -- 9:30PM, Grumman wrote:

 I said tribe, not set. And it means the creature type that I wanted to make a tribal deck for - Angels - does not have enough commons and uncommons to make that a practical option.

Angels are supposed to be top heavy. They were designed that way since day one. Anything less that a 4 drop Angel is just weird, Emancipation Angel being the exception with it's other cost. Maro pretty much said they we will never see anything cheaper than what AVR has.

Apr 27, 2012 -- 6:41AM, metroidcomposite wrote:

Apr 26, 2012 -- 10:20PM, IAmKingTony wrote:

Some of the miracles are worth their regular cost. Reforge The Soul and Bonfire Of The Damned are for sure.

Reforge the soul is 5 mana for "both players toss their hand and draw 7".   They've been doing that for two years and it's seen zero play.

Time Reversal is a blue card with an effect that blue doesn't desire or need.

Reforge the Soul is a red card with an effect that red both desires and needs.

It might see play.

^Yeah, blue wants to have more cards than the opponent so time reversal is kind of meh for it, red just wants to have more cards full stop, reforge the soul does a very good job of this imo.

May 2, 2012 -- 3:44PM, Iduno wrote:

^Yeah, blue wants to have more cards than the opponent so time reversal is kind of meh for it, red just wants to have more cards full stop, reforge the soul does a very good job of this imo.

yep, that and tapping out for time reversal also ussually means the blue player has lost the game...

wheel of fortune is always awesome for red, because they don't care what the opponent gets because they burn you next turn and you lose..

May 2, 2012 -- 1:31PM, 7idledays wrote:

Apr 27, 2012 -- 9:30PM, Grumman wrote:

 I said tribe, not set. And it means the creature type that I wanted to make a tribal deck for - Angels - does not have enough commons and uncommons to make that a practical option.

Angels are supposed to be top heavy. They were designed that way since day one. Anything less that a 4 drop Angel is just weird, Emancipation Angel being the exception with it's other cost. Maro pretty much said they we will never see anything cheaper than what AVR has.

We've done small angels before ...

Apr 23, 2012 -- 9:19AM, Cogminded wrote:

Miracle just seems . . . Off. MaRo even said that they are relying on the honesty of players to not cheat on it and while you should be able to as a player, a mechanic shouldn't rely on it. I have an issue with soulbond too in that I only get one set with it and I actually adore the concept and I'm literally frothing to play with it

I told my opponents to hold their hand away from their deck when drawing the first card of each turn.  They decide whether to cast a miracle right then and there (or choose not to), and there is no confusion or room for cheating that way.  Once I explained that it was to keep eachother honest, nobody had a problem with it and agreed that it's an easy way to handle the miracle mechanic.

May 2, 2012 -- 1:31PM, 7idledays wrote:

Apr 27, 2012 -- 9:30PM, Grumman wrote:

 I said tribe, not set. And it means the creature type that I wanted to make a tribal deck for - Angels - does not have enough commons and uncommons to make that a practical option.

Angels are supposed to be top heavy. They were designed that way since day one. Anything less that a 4 drop Angel is just weird, Emancipation Angel being the exception with it's other cost. Maro pretty much said they we will never see anything cheaper than what AVR has.

Angels should be top-heavy, yes, but typically when a set focuses on something it allows them to bend the rules a little.  Hence why Emancipation Angel was printed.  I can totally see a cheaper angel in the future, but with a drawback.  Kind of like Serra Avenger .

AVR should've had more creature ramp in it, though.  Angel decks should have been easier to make that way.

If not a lower cost angel, they really should have had a Dragonspeaker Shaman of sorts.

May 3, 2012 -- 10:16AM, AzureShade wrote:

May 2, 2012 -- 1:31PM, 7idledays wrote:

Apr 27, 2012 -- 9:30PM, Grumman wrote:

 I said tribe, not set. And it means the creature type that I wanted to make a tribal deck for - Angels - does not have enough commons and uncommons to make that a practical option.

Angels are supposed to be top heavy. They were designed that way since day one. Anything less that a 4 drop Angel is just weird, Emancipation Angel being the exception with it's other cost. Maro pretty much said they we will never see anything cheaper than what AVR has.

We've done small angels before ...

The first 2 were spirits and got chnaged to angel for consistency purposes because the word angelic appears in their name. haunted angel still costs 3, and has a huge drawback

Apr 23, 2012 -- 9:19AM, Cogminded wrote:

I have an issue with soulbond too in that I only get one set with it and I actually adore the concept and I'm literally frothing to play with it

I feel the exact same way.  Soulbond is very cool, and will probably be the crux of my first post-AVR standard deck.  However, I can't help but think that it'll show up as a Core Set's marquee returning mechanic. 

Am I the only one who's upset over the piss-poor quality of the foils?  I mean, you'd expect a set with great art to not go to such waste like this. 

They're too dull, even more so than the Premium Decks.  Their reflective luster is off.  The borders are not shiny, and the higher-resolution art and miracle cards look like total crap.  I'm assuming a printing error in the black-ink distrbution, given the blurrier, thicker text and not as many thin lines in art, and complete lack of reflection-relief detail in miracle borders.  In short, IT'S ALL A DARK BLUR. It is an EMBARRASSMENT.

I sincerely hope this was simply an error in the first batch and not a permanent thing.  If my fears are realized, then they've ruined what would have been the best foils all block.

Well I like the darker look reminds me of the old color borders. But the blurry txt dose suck a lot.

Apr 27, 2012 -- 6:41AM, metroidcomposite wrote:

Apr 26, 2012 -- 10:20PM, IAmKingTony wrote:

Some of the miracles are worth their regular cost. Reforge The Soul and Bonfire Of The Damned are for sure.

I don't agree with either of those.

Reforge the soul is 5 mana for "both players toss their hand and draw 7".   They've been doing that for two years and it's seen zero play.

The fact that it's in red is relevant for why it's better than Time Reversal, but it's still not THAT amazing.

Bonfire of the Damned...well X spells are always tricky but...

X=1: 3 mana for a sorcery speed Simoon .
X=2: 5 mana for basically Massacre Wurm 's etb
X=3: 7 mana for...a one sided Slagstorm .  You could get Elesh Norn for this much mana.

Yeah, one-sidedness is nice and all, but there's a reason Day of Judgement is better than Plague Wind .  If you have that much mana for a sweeper, then you're probably a more controlling deck anyway, so don't really mind destroying all creatures instead of just your opponent's creatures.

The fact that it's one sided, and has a Miracle upside, is entirely the point. This is a sweeper that Aggro decks can run. Five mana to blow away all the tokens/blockers your opponent has, Shock your opponent, and then attack for 8 or so is an incredible gamebreaking play. You're never going to want to hardcast it for more than 5

When you Miracle it, it's even more of a blowout.

A Control deck already had access to Blasphemous Act as a much better "Wrath", so they don't really have that much use for Bonfire (Unless they want an X spell like Devil's Play that can sometimes be a Wrath, but there are few decks that do).