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Switch to Forum Live View 04/16/2012 MM: "Avacyn-gle Ladies, Part 1"
1 year ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 7:02PM #21
DragonsWrath
Date Joined: Mar 19, 2007
Posts: 3,757
I just wanted to say that I was unaware of the "Powerpuff Girls" joke until I read this article.  That is hilarious and awesome.

...

I need to go build a Powerpuff Girls deck...
Casual Magic player since 2003 (Onslaught Block).  60% Johnny, 40% Timmy.


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So .   Green needs an iconic creature type , eh ?   How about wurms !

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1 year ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 7:20PM #22
JohnQMtgplayer
Date Joined: Jul 21, 2010
Posts: 52
I really like the new set. As I sit down, and look through the mythics and rares, there are only 2 mythics out of 15, and only 25% of the rares, where I want to throw them into a fire. That's actually really good! I see a lot of cards for my Standard, Commander, and other casual decks.

I like where the colors are at now, except red. I like that it's going in a new direction, but it feels really weak. Fervent Cathar is good, but everything that is decent in red, aside from Stromkirk Noble, is a three drop. Let's face it: werewolves and curses really stink. Great flavor, but are just awful to play with, and red felt the brunt of both. The entire block flies or makes chump-blocking tokens, which is not a great environment for double-striking, ground-pounders that have to do combat damage to a player.

Lastly, although I mentioned the rares, I feel that uncommons and commons make the block. This block has a feel of Torment/Judgement, with the other colors along for the ride. That said, Standard was ruled by commons and uncommons from non-featured colors in Blue/Green Madness. I look at my friends' favorite cards...they aren't Jace, the Mind Sculptors. They're Rancor, Sakura-tribe Elder, Lightning Bolt, Watchwolf--cards everyone got to play with. And, this is where Innistrad block has largely fell-flat.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 7:40PM #23
Qmark
  • vitriol and virtue
Date Joined: May 18, 2002
Posts: 16,526

Apr 23, 2012 -- 7:20PM, JohnQMtgplayer wrote:

I like where the colors are at now, except red.


I dunno.  This block has turned out pretty damn odd, in that it's giving colors things they just don't get.
Blue got aggro, and red got gas.  I'm surprised white didn't end up with mana acceleration.

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1 year ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 8:59PM #24
Leo-tech
Date Joined: Oct 23, 2011
Posts: 62
I think I understand what went wrong with AVR. Now, before I explain my theory, please note that there is nothing really wrong with AVR itself, it really has more to do with its connection to the rest of Innistrad. I think what happened here was that, as previously stated, they were making the third set of the year stand alone and leaving Innistrad with two sets to work with. At some point in time, they decided that this plan was not going to work out for whatever reason. So, being as for into design/development as they were, they decided that, instead of scrapping the idea for the stand alone set, they would simply incorporate it into Innistrad. The stand alone set must have originally been some sort of angels vs. demons set (note:neither of which is very prevalent in gothic horror, but the latter makes a bit more sense), so when they tried to combine the two (each of which already having some sort of story of its own) they immediately noticed that flavorfully, this was not going to work. Knowing that they were too pressed for time to make a real third set for the original Innistrad story, they realized they would have to unfortunately settle for a dramatically less flavorfully third act to the flavor effusion of Innistrad. To keep from players seeing this set as a complete failure, they had to place as many flashy elements into the set as possible. Things such as vexing devil, a 2cmc p-walker, and time walk 2.0 were ment to draw attention away from things such as the lack of a  legendary werewolf, zero story completion for sorin, Garruk, and somewhat liliana, and a comeplete rejection of graveyard centered ideas (save for a couple of cards). I beleive AVR has found itself flavorfully and mechanically confused and torn between what it was to be and what it was made to be. Odds are, many of the cards in AVR that are being complained about were designed prior to the conversion of Angels vs. Demons into Gothic horror no more Innistrad. Frankly, I bet Avacyn wasn't even originally a part of Innistrad, but was simply a pretty creative way to deepen Innistrad's story while setting up or the link to AVR. If I may say one thing to Wizards: I know it must have been very difficult to even get the two completely different ideas as connected as you did and I applaud you for your effort (given my theory is correct), but NEVER allow this to happen again. I'm sure AVR will remain very successful based off of card sales, but know that it has nearly shattered the love for Innistrad that so many players held when it came out last fall. The story has resulted in endless confusion and anticlimactic endings. If you are going to try to mess with block structures, be 110% sure that you know the end result is what you AND the players want and like. I may only hope that RTR doesn't fall to a similar fate. 
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 10:45PM #25
Donovan_Fabian
Date Joined: Oct 1, 2006
Posts: 1,036
About the "powerpuff girls" trio of angels.  One of my favorite types of creatures are sphinxes as anyone can see by my icon.  With angels in every color now, are we going to see some more multi colored sphinxes in future sets?  Also, if angels are supposed to be anti black, does that imply sphinxes are anti red or can't be colored part red?  I've never seen a sphinx that said anything like all red creatures without flying get -/- or red spells cost more to cast etc.

There was the Angel of Despair as well who was part black, so I find that a little confusing.  Maybe it's only in this particular set.


Hoping Return to Ravnica has some sweet sphinxes in it. 

I also wanted to say my favorite cards for this set are easily Craterhoof behemoth, the duo of Harvester of Souls and Soul of the Harvest (situationally better Garruk's Packleader ftw), Wild Defiance, Triumph of Ferocity, Gryff Vanguard, and Griselbrand (who I would argue is one of the most well designed demons I've seen in years).

One worry I have about this set though is it feels like that even with Bruna (who looks like she would make an awesome commander for EDH) now that we have a lot of equipment and soulbound, and creatures who generally do things just by having other creatures in play (all humans, zombies, etc) what reason do we have to want to play aura/enchantments anymore?  It seems like creature enchantments are becomming an obsoleted part of magic.  No one ever plays them in constructed formats where better options exist.  Very few creature auras will ever surpass any of the swords, and there's not much point in playing a pacifism or in this set we have the spectral prison rather than just destroying that creature altogether which it seems like every color is capable of doing (especially accounting for phyrexian mana).  Does this mean we won't be seeing many enchant creature cards in the future?
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 2:10AM #26
TobyornotToby
Date Joined: Mar 7, 2006
Posts: 2,288

Apr 23, 2012 -- 10:45PM, Donovan_Fabian wrote:

About the "powerpuff girls" trio of angels.  One of my favorite types of creatures are sphinxes as anyone can see by my icon.  With angels in every color now, are we going to see some more multi colored sphinxes in future sets?  Also, if angels are supposed to be anti black, does that imply sphinxes are anti red or can't be colored part red?  I've never seen a sphinx that said anything like all red creatures without flying get -/- or red spells cost more to cast etc.

There was the Angel of Despair as well who was part black, so I find that a little confusing.  Maybe it's only in this particular set.




Yes it's only this set, where the black-white conflict is heavily emphasized. 

Also, they don't go multicolored often, mostly just when they're a central piece of the setting. Dragons were a big deal in Kamigawa, so they made one in every color. This set is about Angels, so they make one in the other colors. 

I'm sure once we go to an Egyptian-themed set, we will see Sphinxes in every color =)

Apr 23, 2012 -- 10:45PM, Donovan_Fabian wrote:

Hoping Return to Ravnica has some sweet sphinxes in it.




It should have, it was the first set to feature them as the signature blue fattie.

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1 year ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 5:05AM #27
JohnQMtgplayer
Date Joined: Jul 21, 2010
Posts: 52

Apr 23, 2012 -- 8:59PM, Leo-tech wrote:

I think I understand what went wrong with AVR. Now, before I explain my theory, please note that there is nothing really wrong with AVR itself, it really has more to do with its connection to the rest of Innistrad. I think what happened here was that, as previously stated, they were making the third set of the year stand alone and leaving Innistrad with two sets to work with. At some point in time, they decided that this plan was not going to work out for whatever reason. So, being as for into design/development as they were, they decided that, instead of scrapping the idea for the stand alone set, they would simply incorporate it into Innistrad. The stand alone set must have originally been some sort of angels vs. demons set (note:neither of which is very prevalent in gothic horror, but the latter makes a bit more sense), so when they tried to combine the two (each of which already having some sort of story of its own) they immediately noticed that flavorfully, this was not going to work. Knowing that they were too pressed for time to make a real third set for the original Innistrad story, they realized they would have to unfortunately settle for a dramatically less flavorfully third act to the flavor effusion of Innistrad. To keep from players seeing this set as a complete failure, they had to place as many flashy elements into the set as possible. Things such as vexing devil, a 2cmc p-walker, and time walk 2.0 were ment to draw attention away from things such as the lack of a  legendary werewolf, zero story completion for sorin, Garruk, and somewhat liliana, and a comeplete rejection of graveyard centered ideas (save for a couple of cards). I beleive AVR has found itself flavorfully and mechanically confused and torn between what it was to be and what it was made to be. Odds are, many of the cards in AVR that are being complained about were designed prior to the conversion of Angels vs. Demons into Gothic horror no more Innistrad. Frankly, I bet Avacyn wasn't even originally a part of Innistrad, but was simply a pretty creative way to deepen Innistrad's story while setting up or the link to AVR. If I may say one thing to Wizards: I know it must have been very difficult to even get the two completely different ideas as connected as you did and I applaud you for your effort (given my theory is correct), but NEVER allow this to happen again. I'm sure AVR will remain very successful based off of card sales, but know that it has nearly shattered the love for Innistrad that so many players held when it came out last fall. The story has resulted in endless confusion and anticlimactic endings. If you are going to try to mess with block structures, be 110% sure that you know the end result is what you AND the players want and like. I may only hope that RTR doesn't fall to a similar fate. 


I like reading people's opinions, but you've got to break down that Great Wall of Text. I flew right by it.

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1 year ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 5:36AM #28
JohnQMtgplayer
Date Joined: Jul 21, 2010
Posts: 52

Apr 24, 2012 -- 2:10AM, TobyornotToby wrote:

I'm sure once we go to an Egyptian-themed set, we will see Sphinxes in every color =)




I don't think sphinxes (flavor-wise) really work well in red or green...they'd have to be splashed with blue. Your Egyptian theme had me thinking though. Arabian was a very well crafted set. It was a flavor set, like Kamigawa or Innistrad, and because of its age, the cards fall a little flat today. However, it mixed elements of Arabian Nights that the leyman knew, plus some more complex themes from other parts of the fable. It's a true travesty that people in that part of the world didn't see the flattery. Also, Mirage/Visions had a deep African vibe, quickly departed to begin the Weatherlight cycle.

Here's my point: I would love for them to play with the basic set a bit. Certainly not every year, just on occasion, when it needs a little revival. Make it a one-off setting, like Coldsnap was (I'm discounting Ice Age/Alliances impact on Standard Magic at Coldsnap's release here), but don't limit it to the confines of mechanics or gimmicks. Just make it an "M" set within a theme, like an Arabian redux. They really shouldn't be reprints, but rather, similar names with modern abilities and finish.

Lastly, I'll say the time would be right for it now. Obviously, that's not going to happen. I started playing in Weatherlight, and M2010 and M2011 were sets that I was just really excited about. M2012-- not so much. I can't really say why, but there didn't seem to be any originality. It felt like they were just deciding which version of Ponder to use this time. Adaptive Automaton and Grand Abolisher were the main stand-outs for me.

I anticipate 2013 will have a huge overhaul, with nearly all of the mythics being replaced, as well as the multi-colored lands. This is the first time (that I recall) where Wizards has spoiled the setting of the next block before the current one wraps up. I think they'll use this wave of anticipation to make M2013 a primer for a really great standard environment.

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1 year ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 5:54AM #29
TobyornotToby
Date Joined: Mar 7, 2006
Posts: 2,288

Apr 24, 2012 -- 5:36AM, JohnQMtgplayer wrote:

I don't think sphinxes (flavor-wise) really work well in red or green...they'd have to be splashed with blue.




Sphinx, just like Dragon and Angel, just means 'big flying thing' these days. There's things like Goliath Sphinx and Sphinx of Steel Wind . Just like Jugan, the Rising Star , I'm sure they can make green and red Sphinxes that might not stand alone that well, but make sense as part of a cycle. 

Or yeah, multicolored. It's not like Angels are a good fit for Blue or Green.

Apr 24, 2012 -- 5:36AM, JohnQMtgplayer wrote:

This is the first time (that I recall) where Wizards has spoiled the setting of the next block before the current one wraps up. I think they'll use this wave of anticipation to make M2013 a primer for a really great standard environment.




No they've always done this =)
Or at least for a long time.  

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1 year ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 3:15PM #30
Leo-tech
Date Joined: Oct 23, 2011
Posts: 62
              I think I understand what went wrong with AVR. Now, before I explain my theory, please note that there is nothing really wrong with AVR itself, it really has more to do with its connection to the rest of Innistrad. I think what happened here was that, as previously stated, they were making the third set of the year stand alone and leaving Innistrad with two sets to work with. At some point in time, they decided that this plan was not going to work out for whatever reason. So, being as for into design/development as they were, they decided that, instead of scrapping the idea for the stand alone set, they would simply incorporate it into Innistrad.
               
              The stand alone set must have originally been some sort of angels vs. demons set (note:neither of which is very prevalent in gothic horror, but the latter makes a bit more sense), so when they tried to combine the two (each of which already having some sort of story of its own) they immediately noticed that flavorfully, this was not going to work. Knowing that they were too pressed for time to make a real third set for the original Innistrad story, they realized they would have to unfortunately settle for a dramatically less flavorfully third act to the flavor effusion of Innistrad. To keep from players seeing this set as a complete failure, they had to place as many flashy elements into the set as possible. Things such as vexing devil, a 2cmc p-walker, and time walk 2.0 were ment to draw attention away from things such as the lack of a  legendary werewolf, zero story completion for sorin, Garruk, and somewhat liliana, and a comeplete rejection of graveyard centered ideas (save for a couple of cards).

               I beleive AVR has found itself flavorfully and mechanically confused and torn between what it was to be and what it was made to be. Odds are, many of the cards in AVR that are being complained about were designed prior to the conversion of Angels vs. Demons into Gothic horror no more Innistrad. Frankly, I bet Avacyn wasn't even originally a part of Innistrad, but was simply a pretty creative way to deepen Innistrad's story while setting up or the link to AVR. If I may say one thing to Wizards: I know it must have been very difficult to even get the two completely different ideas as connected as you did and I applaud you for your effort (given my theory is correct), but NEVER allow this to happen again. I'm sure AVR will remain very successful based off of card sales, but know that it has nearly shattered the love for Innistrad that so many players held when it came out last fall. The story has resulted in endless confusion and anticlimactic endings. If you are going to try to mess with block structures, be 110% sure that you know the end result is what you AND the players want and like.

               We may only hope that RTR doesn't fall to a similar fate. 

(that easier to read?) 
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