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Apr 19, 2012 -- 10:07AM, Meneerbeer wrote:

Apr 19, 2012 -- 6:01AM, DDMTGGeek wrote:

I read this thread as "oh woe is me. It's not fair to aggressive red decks. The game is broken." As a player who goes against usually two to three red decks each FNM and loses most matches due to speed, I say, 'my heart pours purple koolaid for you."

Aggressive red decks dont care too much if your threats are removed, as long as you have enough burn to finish your opponents off. It is more the non-monored decks I am worried about. Potentially powerful general answer cards like Terminus might seem ok to you, but it kills variety in creature  based decks. Even worse: you have to build your deck around the the idea that your opponent can potentially draw this off the top. That chance element doesn't sit well with me, I prefer a skill based game over a luck based one.

Anyways, we have to wait and see if it actually gets played a lot, as it might not even be good enough. Someone with better math skills can probably figure out how reliably a control based deck can draw this when needed.

A contol deck won't draw this any more often than it would a regular Wrath; how often they'll be able to miracle it depends on how much card draw they have, whether it's instant speed or sorcery, whether it's draw-one or draw many, etc.  It takes more than good math skills to figure those odds--it requires a bunch of assumptions that may or may not be validated in a few months.  How often you'll want to miracle it is another question altogether.

That being said, I'm somewhat certain (given what I've seen of the set so far) that a control deck not trying to abuse the miracle mechanic wouldn't want this card, except perhaps as Wraths 5-6, although if there's enough good instant-speed card draw then that changes (I haven't seen anything new beyond the UR land, but that could easily change).  Your average control deck isn't that interested in draw-one effects, only rarely wants to Wrath before turn four anyway, and most control decks don't mind waiting an extra turn to cast their big finisher.  This changes a little if aggressive decks backed up by countermagic are a big part of the metagame, so this might well see play out of the sideboard or even main if Delver continues to be the deck to beat, but I'm pretty certain that's an exception rather than the rule.

Scrubs, however, will be blinded by the potential upside, play this card when they probable shouldn't, and randomly beat better players with better decks.  Not often enough to improve their overall record, of course.  Just often enough to be incredibly frustrating when they rip this off the top and get to cast it through my wall of Mana Leaks.  Grumble, grumble.

Apr 19, 2012 -- 3:18PM, chronego wrote:

Apr 19, 2012 -- 6:01AM, DDMTGGeek wrote:

I read this thread as "oh woe is me. It's not fair to aggressive red decks. The game is broken." As a player who goes against usually two to three red decks each FNM and loses most matches due to speed, I say, 'my heart pours purple koolaid for you."

It's a lot more amusing when you realize that, not too long ago, everyone was complaining that Wizards of the Coast "only ever pushes aggro strategies" and wanted to make Magic "all about turning dudes sideways".

I'd just like to point out that one can both hate Wizards pushing aggro strategies and hate stupid swingy, varience-increasing mechanics.  The two are not mutually exclusive.  Besides, I'm fairly convinced that it's actually better for the aggressive red deck if their opponents are running this card over an actual Wrath.  If I'm playing aggro red, I'd much rather my opponent miracle-Wrath on turns 1 or 2 than actual-Wrath on turn 4 under most circumstances, not to mention that seeing this card in the opening hand should be nearly equivalent to a mulligan against a fast red deck.

Apr 19, 2012 -- 6:45PM, chronego wrote:

Apr 19, 2012 -- 6:11PM, The_Great_Galendo wrote:

I'd just like to point out that one can both hate Wizards pushing aggro strategies and hate stupid swingy, varience-increasing mechanics.  The two are not mutually exclusive.

I know, and I agree. They've pushed creatures too far, and I hate Miracle. However, the irony is that people complain when aggro is the "only strategy", and there's "no way to beat it". Then along comes a way to beat it, and everyone complains that it's hosing aggro. That's all I meant.

Ah, okay, we're in agreement, then.  Mostly at least.  The thing is, I really don't see Terminus actually being that good against aggro.  It's great when Miracled against aggro-control (i.e., fish, i.e., cheap creatures backed up by counterspells), in the sense that you'd want to miracle it pretty much every turn of the game, assuming they've played a 1-drop on turn 1.

But if the opponent drops a turn 1 Fireslinger or turn 1 Lavamancer, miracling this turn 2 is probably just worse than drawing a good-old-fashioned 4-mana Wrath.  You'll still miracle it if you draw it, because waiting until turn six just isn't an option, but you'd probably rather have the Wrath in this case.  I can see playing a couple of these over a couple of Wraths, because then the chance of randomly mulling to six and the chance of dead-drawing a couple of these in a row is significantly reduced, but any control deck that thinks it'll jam four of these to improve its game against aggro is probably in for a rude awakening.  It's even worse against non-red aggro decks (again, apart from fish), because the early damage you take just isn't that significant when they don't have burn to seal the deal post-Wrath.

Apr 20, 2012 -- 8:17AM, Kingreaper wrote:

I don't like the interaction with instant speed draw. I'd much rather it was only the first card on your own turn.

Otherwise I like miracle. Yes it's a random mechanic. But sometimes random can be fun. Temporal Mastery is definitely the one I like least, because it's so much more automatic than End of the Line, which still requires some thought. 

i agree on the random is fun part, but not in a way miracle does:
Grip of Chaos is fun, coz after you land it, it makes everything random without totally trowing the game around*, running in a miracle Temporal Mastery is totally trowing the game around, when you were in a race for example, you will be winning after the Temp Mast. Even if you were (far) behind.
With Grip of Chaos , not so sure.
So random is fun when it is just random, when it is going to be incredible powerfull or completely useless (like miracle, very undercosted miracle cost versus quit overcosted 'normal' cost) it is just no fun.

 
* Grip of Chaos sure trows the game around in a way that the game looks different after it, but not in a way that an unwinnable postion is going to be the winner for sure.