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Flag Yxoque November 29, 2012 6:34 AM PST

Nov 29, 2012 -- 5:36AM, Terti wrote:

I'd finish the BA in any case, if I were you. But can't you take the middle road and do a one year master?




I'm planning on finishing my Bachelor. I've got to do one internship and one paper associated with that. With a small amount of effort I should have a degree in June. 


A Master in Criminology is a one-year Master, but due to a rocky academic life, I'll have to do it in two. 


Nov 29, 2012 -- 6:01AM, HairlessThoctar wrote:

I'm currently in my last year of a Game and Simulation Programming program and I hate it. I got into the program thinking it would be a wide range of technical, production and artistic schools of thought
NOPE, all technical.
I'm complete ass at programming. I love the classes where we get to do things like modeling and level design, but whenever I get to a class that has me write code I want to drink bleach. The only thing that keeps me going is the fact that I don't think I can afford to try again and my fetishistic love of game design theory.




I can understand. At least you have parts of it you truly love, which probably helps to make it bearable. 

Flag KeeperofManyNames November 29, 2012 9:04 AM PST
@Yxoque, @Thoctar:

That's rough. I'm sorry to hear things are so miserable for you both. :/ I was almost in that same boat, actually--I originally was going to go into graphic design. Which would've sucked because I hate people and I hate working for them and I think their ideas are stupid. It just would've been a terrible match and I was only doing it because I thought I couldn't make it as an artist.

I just was lucky enough that I discovered Art History and realized I wanted to teach. It was a near thing though. :/

At least you guys are almost done, though.

What are you planning on doing post-graduation?

Yxoque, didn't you kinda hate your internship with the actual police?
Flag Yxoque November 29, 2012 10:40 AM PST

Nov 29, 2012 -- 9:04AM, KeeperofManyNames wrote:


1. What are you planning on doing post-graduation? 



2. Yxoque, didn't you kinda hate your internship with the actual police?




1. I honestly have no idea. I can't think of any job I'm qualified to do that I would love to do. I'll probably do something in social services of some kind while I figure out what it is I really want.


2. Hate it is a bit strong, but I'll have to do it again. And part of it is that I'm not allowed to do anything during the internship. I hate doing nothing.

Flag HairlessThoctar November 29, 2012 11:07 AM PST
Drink lead paint.

No but seriously, no idea.

The most basic entry level position in the game dev industry is QA (ie, testing), but there's a lot of horror stories about companies treating their testers as slave labor with abysmal pay, benefits, job security and hours.
What's more you don't need a degree to do the job.
I'm told that the companies that tend to treat their testers like human beings are the game developers whereas the game publishers are the black liquid bile hellspawn companies.

If I had the funds, I would probably try to give another go from the production or artistic side of the industry, but I'm not sure I can afford it.

It all comes back to the fact that I don't think I'm good enough at the technical stuff to get a job out of it, as a game dev or otherwise (so I often wonder why I bother continuing this degree since I clearly hate it so much). I love video games and game design theory in general, but I'm complete rubbish at writing code.
It doesn't hurt that corporate appears to be doing everything possible to screw my program over.

Secretly, I want to move to Renton and throw my resume at literally every opening that WotC hosts until something sticks or I die from old age, because Magic is my favorite thing ever.
The numerous articles that stress that they only hire graduates has been one of few things keeping me interested in finishing school, to be honest.
Flag Barinellos November 29, 2012 1:47 PM PST
Ah college, the ever present "Not as advertised" that should be stapled onto every program the have.
Flag magicpablo666 November 29, 2012 4:51 PM PST
Glasir and Keeper - I'm both impressed and jealous. I have no idea where you find time for such things. Your creations are beautiful.

Yxoque and Thoctar - I feel for you both. Your respective plights are truly concerning to me. Due to mistakes I made towards the end of high school, I have only just started my college education. So, while some of my friends are going to graduate from University this semester, I'm only just starting. I believe I have the opposite problem - I'm interested in too many things. I could see myself falling down any number of paths. I hope that you guys resolve your respective conundrums. You should both feel proud of what you've accomplished.
Flag Yxoque November 30, 2012 1:21 AM PST

Nov 29, 2012 -- 4:51PM, magicpablo666 wrote:

I believe I have the opposite problem - I'm interested in too many things. I could see myself falling down any number of paths.




I know how that feels. I'm interested in a wide range of fields and I have basic knowledge about subjects ranging from nuclear physics to history, to literary theory and psychology. I like knowing things and I'm easily bored.


I really think I'd be a good (assistant-) natural philosopher in the 17th century. When science was just doing whatever you wanted, regardless of your field of expertise, as long as it expanded the body of knowledge. It was also possible to know "everything" back then, which is an idea I like very much. 


You know what would be great. If they just gave me a long list of all the subjects taught on campus and then letting me choose whatever I found interesting.

Flag KeeperofManyNames December 2, 2012 3:41 PM PST
It's a bad time for Renaissance Men, I fear. :/

Too bad, too, because I think a lot of the best ideas come from polymaths, but it's so hard to do that anymore. Honestly, part of the reason I'm going into media is because the field is so damn nebulous that I think I'll be able to just kinda... do my own thing.
Flag TommyLeeJones December 2, 2012 11:26 PM PST
That's really interesting, Yx. I wonder if you've considered a teaching career? I mean, true that most don't involve research, but you could certainly exercise your vast partial knowledge.
Flag Yxoque December 3, 2012 8:05 AM PST

Dec 2, 2012 -- 3:41PM, KeeperofManyNames wrote:

It's a bad time for Renaissance Men, I fear. :/


It's true, I guess. Which is a shame, since having broad knowledge gives insights other people might never have. Just this weekend I solved a problem for a friend of me who's studying to become a programmer/IT-person by having knowledge of cartography. Maybe I should find a job as a general problem-solver. Or in a think-tank, but they're often too political. 


Dec 2, 2012 -- 11:26PM, TommyLeeJones wrote:

That's really interesting, Yx. I wonder if you've considered a teaching career? I mean, true that most don't involve research, but you could certainly exercise your vast partial knowledge.


I have considered teaching, maybe I should do evening classes at some point, but becoming a teacher has some downsides. First of all, I dislike the way the education system works, in general. And the subjects I'm most qualified to give (social sciences and cultural sciences) are taken mostly, in Belgium at least, (about 60% of the pupils) take it because they don't want to put any effort into their education. And I really don't want to waste my life teaching unmotivated spoiled brats.



But enough about me. Here's a topic I've been waiting to talk about. If you were a character in a cyberpunk story, how would you look like? You can choose the world and the level of technology. 

Flag Deckhopper December 3, 2012 9:16 AM PST
Wow, that is one heck of a question. I pose one of my own: Are we limited to 'Verses that are cyberpunk stories, or simply SF 'Verses were cyberpunk stories can occur? Not that there isn't enough to choose from when cyberpunk can include everything from Neuromancer to Ghost in the Shell, but it gets vastly expanded if we can include everything and anything such as Schlock Mercenary.
Flag Yxoque December 3, 2012 9:21 AM PST
Feel free to interpret it in any way you want.
Flag Deckhopper December 3, 2012 9:27 AM PST
Ah. In that case, I would look like me, except my glasses would have slightly darker lenses.
Flag HairlessThoctar December 3, 2012 9:32 AM PST
Lots of tron lines and a cool helmet like Daft Punk or Isaac Clarke.
Flag Barinellos December 3, 2012 10:33 AM PST

Dec 3, 2012 -- 9:27AM, Deckhopper wrote:

Ah. In that case, I would look like me, except my glasses would have slightly darker lenses.




So like Adam Jensen.
"I never asked for this..."

"For god's sake Adam, I just thought you'd like some chinese food! Fine, don't eat it..."

Flag Deckhopper December 3, 2012 10:43 AM PST
Except that I would never turn down free chinese, sure. I just figure darker glasses will make it easier to read the monitor displays built into the lenses.
Flag Barinellos December 3, 2012 10:46 AM PST
I choose to interpret the question in terms of GitS.
In which case, I would have ports in the back of my neck and that would be about the extent of the difference I would have.

Though I might wear less clothes, if for nothing else, because it would make Keeper go squee.
Flag KeeperofManyNames December 3, 2012 11:01 AM PST
In the future we will ALL dress like the Major.

If I have anything to say about it, anyway. 
Flag HairlessThoctar December 3, 2012 11:22 AM PST

THE FUTURE TASTES CRISP AND REFRESHING 
Flag Deckhopper December 3, 2012 11:34 AM PST
I'm not sure you'd want me to dress like the Major. I'm afraid there'd be...spillage. Make of that what you would.
Flag KeeperofManyNames December 3, 2012 11:40 AM PST

Dec 3, 2012 -- 11:22AM, HairlessThoctar wrote:


THE FUTURE TASTES CRISP AND REFRESHING 


Not Mayor, Maj--actually you know what, CANTOWN IS THE FUTURE! TAB FOR EVERYONE!

Flag magicpablo666 December 3, 2012 1:41 PM PST
Well, I dunno. I already dress in full body spandex suits, full on gas masks and in hotter weather just respirators, although the one I own of that kind does have six different strobe settings - here it is. And when I can pull it of, I have a few different pairs of goggles. One of which is welding - which came in handy during that eclipse a few months ago. So, fashion-wise, I just assume that the rest of the world will have caught up with my incredible sense of style.

As for bodily augmentation, I'm pretty much a perfectly sculpted male. At least, that's what it says on my business card - but I could use, um, horns, maybe. A tail would be cool. Like a devil tail. Chameleon skin. Gecko hands. That sorta thing.
Flag HairlessThoctar December 3, 2012 3:12 PM PST

Dec 3, 2012 -- 1:41PM, magicpablo666 wrote:

Gecko hands.




Why stop there?
Gecko tongues.
Gecko eyes.
A tail that detaches to distract predators.
   

THE FUTURE IS GECKO

Flag KeeperofManyNames December 3, 2012 7:19 PM PST
GECKO CRASH!
GECKOMANCER!
GECKOST IN THE SHELL!


In other news, OH MY GOD NEW ARTICLE. It's about Homestuck and Gnostic Christianity. Reddit thread is (or will be) here.


I would probably just be myself but with a cybernetic body. I like dressing like a professor. The main difference is that I might periodically swap from a male to a female model, just for fun/confusion. Oh, and if I can get subdermal glowstrips that would be kinda cool too. I like the idea of being able to communicate like a cuttlefish.
Flag HairlessThoctar December 3, 2012 8:52 PM PST

Dec 3, 2012 -- 7:19PM, KeeperofManyNames wrote:



In other news, OH MY GOD NEW ARTICLE. It's about Homestuck and Gnostic Christianity. Reddit thread is (or will be) here.




Wow, thats really long.
if nothing else, i have something to do at work this week.

Oh, and if I can get subdermal glowstrips that would be kinda cool too. I like the idea of being able to communicate like a cuttlefish.




Whale then, I would be forced to cull you.
O)()()( IT WOULD B-E SO MUC)( FUN! 38D

No but seriously, more funding needs to be put into moodring skin.   

Flag Terti December 4, 2012 1:30 AM PST
I guess some of us are already souped up sex cyborgs, but I'd do opt for more upgrades. Keeper's idea being an interesting one at that
Flag HairlessThoctar December 4, 2012 9:11 AM PST
That was delightful, Keeper.
I'm glad there's people like you here to point out these sort of things. 
Flag KeeperofManyNames December 4, 2012 9:53 AM PST
Thanks. I'm really glad you enjoyed it. :D

Unfortunately, Reddit doesn't seem to agree. :/ I'm seeing a lot of the same criticisms--mainly that I'm excluding too many other data points, and that I'm reading too much into things. Those aren't so much issues with my argument, though, as they are issues with Formalist Criticism as a whole. But... I guess I didn't do a good job of explaining what kind of criticism I was doing and why it accepts that selectivity as a necessary evil? So... I'm not sure what the solution is, whether I should just accept that 20% of my readers are going to just not be on the same page, or whether I should be sticking a description of HOW and WHY I'm doing my analysis in every article, which seems like it would get kinda tedious after a while...

Blarglaglgglaarlgl I don't know. I'm probably blowing what is really a minority of readers out of proportion. It's just frustrating since I want to write an entire followup but A. I don't think most of the people that read this article will read that one and B. I don't have time since I'm studying for the GRE currently.
Flag HairlessThoctar December 4, 2012 10:48 AM PST
Consider that people that agree with you are less like to say so because they take it as a given, but those that disagree with you are going to be more vocal because they disagree with you.
Flag isaic16 December 4, 2012 12:43 PM PST

Nov 29, 2012 -- 11:07AM, HairlessThoctar wrote:

Drink lead paint.

No but seriously, no idea.

The most basic entry level position in the game dev industry is QA (ie, testing), but there's a lot of horror stories about companies treating their testers as slave labor with abysmal pay, benefits, job security and hours.
What's more you don't need a degree to do the job.
I'm told that the companies that tend to treat their testers like human beings are the game developers whereas the game publishers are the black liquid bile hellspawn companies.

If I had the funds, I would probably try to give another go from the production or artistic side of the industry, but I'm not sure I can afford it.

It all comes back to the fact that I don't think I'm good enough at the technical stuff to get a job out of it, as a game dev or otherwise (so I often wonder why I bother continuing this degree since I clearly hate it so much). I love video games and game design theory in general, but I'm complete rubbish at writing code.
It doesn't hurt that corporate appears to be doing everything possible to screw my program over.

Secretly, I want to move to Renton and throw my resume at literally every opening that WotC hosts until something sticks or I die from old age, because Magic is my favorite thing ever.
The numerous articles that stress that they only hire graduates has been one of few things keeping me interested in finishing school, to be honest.




I've worked as a tester, and my sister is a programmer who has worked for various game developers.  Your understanding of the industry is completely accurate.

My recommendation is to figure out what you want to do in game design.  Make sure that what interests you is actually making the games, and not just the concept of games.  I know that took me a bit to realize. 

If you genuinely want to make games, then I think it is worthwhile to try to come in as a tester (preferrably with a developer, for the above reason, and also because then you're right in the same place as the people making the game).  From there, ask questions.  Talk to everyone that will give you the time of day, become a sponge, take notes, everything.  If they're not in crunch, the people there will probably be happy to answer questions or have discussions.  The industry tends to be amazingly laid-back, and you can find yourself mingling with the head of the company on a daily basis.

Make friends and make contacts.  People move from one company to another so frequently in that industry that you quite literally never know who you might be able to use as a resource when looking for a job somewhere.  Knowing people is just as important as skills in getting you in the door.

Flag isaic16 December 4, 2012 1:11 PM PST
New random topic, as it's something that's been happening lately.

Blame.

Specifically, what is it?  Is it ever beneficial to assess?  And why do we have such an obsession with it?

Context:

Work has been rough of late.  This shouldn't be a surprise, I'm sure just about everyone's work has been rough of late.  The interesting parts are the cause and the result.  There was some kind of event, I don't know the details, about 3-4 levels above me in the company.  The net result is that because of something somebody said to someone, my team got saddled with more work than they could handle, and were basically set up to fail.  The result has been for the team to band together.  Our manager went straight to the head of our customer group, above all the others, and extablished a priority system to determine true needs versus wants.  We have been given a still agressive but achievable goals, and the whole group is pushing forward, agreeing to put in extra work if necessary, to ensure that we can get through this.  It helps incentivize us that we know people we care about will almost certainly be fired if we can't get through this.


Output:

What I find interesting, though, is what happens when I tell this story.  My focus, because it is what is important to me, is to focus on how our team is coming together, how we're circling up and fighting back against impossible odds like we were in a comic book or something.

However, everyone I talk to can't get off the cause.  They ask for questions and details about the people up top, about this mysterious even that caused the work landslide, why they would set us up to fail.  In essense, they focus on blaming people for my situation, not enjoying the story of resilience that I am.  My GF even ranted for several minutes about the jerk guy 3 levels up from me and how this is effectively all his fault, when she's never met him, doesn't know his name, and only knows a second hand-version of a second-hand story.


Request:

Any thoughts or contributions.  It's a part of human nature that always frustrates me.  I have come to open discussions by putting blame on myself, just so I can get past the blame discussion and start working on a solution.  Anyone else have a situation like that?  And is there something here I am missing?  Is it not just desire to blame that makes things like this happen?
Flag Terti December 4, 2012 1:26 PM PST
Blaming others is mentally easier than facing you're really did just **** up the situation yourself and doing something about it. Ultimately, though, I'd say that it looks to be about faking your own success or downplaying that of others, so you look more favourably in the eyes of potential mates and get more offspring.
Flag Shamsiel December 4, 2012 1:33 PM PST
I've done a lot of self analysis lately.

I don't think whatever pride I have obscures me from self-criticism.
Flag HairlessThoctar December 4, 2012 1:38 PM PST

Dec 4, 2012 -- 12:43PM, isaic16 wrote:


I've worked as a tester, and my sister is a programmer who has worked for various game developers.  Your understanding of the industry is completely accurate.



Aw fiddlesticks.

 
My recommendation is to figure out what you want to do in game design.  Make sure that what interests you is actually making the games, and not just the concept of games.  I know that took me a bit to realize.  

If you genuinely want to make games, then I think it is worthwhile to try to come in as a tester (preferrably with a developer, for the above reason, and also because then you're right in the same place as the people making the game).  From there, ask questions.  Talk to everyone that will give you the time of day, become a sponge, take notes, everything.  If they're not in crunch, the people there will probably be happy to answer questions or have discussions.  The industry tends to be amazingly laid-back, and you can find yourself mingling with the head of the company on a daily basis.


Honestly, I hate writing code, but I still really enjoy game design theory and the like. Given the opportunity, I think I'd prefer to go into the artistic side of things. Character/level design, modeling, that sort of thing.    


Make friends and make contacts.  People move from one company to another so frequently in that industry that you quite literally never know who you might be able to use as a resource when looking for a job somewhere.  Knowing people is just as important as skills in getting you in the door.




I know a guy that used to work at a major developer, I'm probably going to be more forward with him in the future.

Flag KeeperofManyNames December 4, 2012 1:38 PM PST

Dec 4, 2012 -- 1:26PM, Terti wrote:

Blaming others is mentally easier than facing you're really did just **** up the situation yourself and doing something about it. Ultimately, though, I'd say that it looks to be about faking your own success or downplaying that of others, so you look more favourably in the eyes of potential mates and get more offspring.


This seems is cynical to the point of abject absurdity, especially given the context of isaic's post where NOTHING you just described applies AT ALL.


@isaic:

I think it's a pretty complex problem. There's definite benefits on a broad structural level to blame... for one thing, it allows us to carry out justice, which I think is important (I'll let someone like Yxoque that has more experience there handle that subject, though). It also allows you over time to examine systemic failures. If these sorts of decisions start to fit a pattern, you have to begin assigning blame in order to start reworking the system. In essence, you have to start talking about who individually screwed up in order to talk about HOW they screwed up, which allows you to talk about why that particular form of screwup was possible, what safeguards if any should be put in place, how we should rethink hierarchies and chains of command, &c. &c.

And I mean, I think blame to some extent comes from the same place that the banding together impulse comes from--it's people empathizing with you due to the perceived assault upon you by outside enemies. That seems pretty natural, and not necessarily such a bad thing.

At the same time, you're probably right that it can create just as many problems as it solves in the wrong context.


EDIT: My wailing and gnashing of teeth over my last article might be a good example, actually. I want to know if it's specifically MY FAULT that people don't understand the kind of argument I'm making, because that's the only way I'm going to become a better teacher. But by the same token, it's useful to have someone that I trust say "Nah man, those people are just idiots," because then I'm not wasting resources trying to solve a problem that I actually can't do anything about, you know? So, assigning blame is important to problem solving in that sense.

But yeah, like you I think I'm more inclined to just assume the responsibility for a disconnect and move on rather than weigh things too much before hand. I mean, the more I think about writing the better I get anyway, so it's not like I'm really wasting time and resources.

I hope this made some sense or had some relevance... 

Flag Terti December 4, 2012 1:45 PM PST
It is, Keeper? I'm musing on the phenomenon as a whole there, not on Isaic's case specifically :$
Flag isaic16 December 4, 2012 2:08 PM PST

Dec 4, 2012 -- 1:38PM, KeeperofManyNames wrote:

Dec 4, 2012 -- 1:26PM, Terti wrote:

Blaming others is mentally easier than facing you're really did just **** up the situation yourself and doing something about it. Ultimately, though, I'd say that it looks to be about faking your own success or downplaying that of others, so you look more favourably in the eyes of potential mates and get more offspring.


This seems is cynical to the point of abject absurdity, especially given the context of isaic's post where NOTHING you just described applies AT ALL.


@isaic:

I think it's a pretty complex problem. There's definite benefits on a broad structural level to blame... for one thing, it allows us to carry out justice, which I think is important (I'll let someone like Yxoque that has more experience there handle that subject, though). It also allows you over time to examine systemic failures. If these sorts of decisions start to fit a pattern, you have to begin assigning blame in order to start reworking the system. In essence, you have to start talking about who individually screwed up in order to talk about HOW they screwed up, which allows you to talk about why that particular form of screwup was possible, what safeguards if any should be put in place, how we should rethink hierarchies and chains of command, &c. &c.

And I mean, I think blame to some extent comes from the same place that the banding together impulse comes from--it's people empathizing with you due to the perceived assault upon you by outside enemies. That seems pretty natural, and not necessarily such a bad thing.

At the same time, you're probably right that it can create just as many problems as it solves in the wrong context.


EDIT: My wailing and gnashing of teeth over my last article might be a good example, actually. I want to know if it's specifically MY FAULT that people don't understand the kind of argument I'm making, because that's the only way I'm going to become a better teacher. But by the same token, it's useful to have someone that I trust say "Nah man, those people are just idiots," because then I'm not wasting resources trying to solve a problem that I actually can't do anything about, you know? So, assigning blame is important to problem solving in that sense.

But yeah, like you I think I'm more inclined to just assume the responsibility for a disconnect and move on rather than weigh things too much before hand. I mean, the more I think about writing the better I get anyway, so it's not like I'm really wasting time and resources.

I hope this made some sense or had some relevance... 




That's a fair point.  And, to be quite honest, I think my dislike of blame stems largely from my fear of confrontation, since whatever the outcome, there will be confrontation involved.  That can be good in that it encourages peaceful resolutions, but also bad, as you mentioned, in that it does not solve root causes.

In the end, I think my big problem is the ritual.  We have plenty of time to do the blame game after the dust has settled.  But, if we discover a problem with the deadline 5 days away and everything needs to be redone, why are we spending two hours casting stones.  We know the problem.  I've TOLD YOU the problem.  Let me fix it, and THEN you can fire me or whatever makes you happy.

@Terti: I agree the primary source of blame is that need to deflect from yourself.  But, that doesn't explain why blame is the focus even when you are not involved.  I think it's a combination of that basic need, and a desire to extend that to people you care for.  If they're down, you want to help them, and the best thing to do is rally against that thing that we're blaming for everything.

I just wish we didn't have that instinct when I honestly am not feeling bad, or in need of a lift from it.

Flag bay_falconer December 4, 2012 4:20 PM PST

Dec 3, 2012 -- 11:01AM, KeeperofManyNames wrote:

In the future we will ALL dress like the Major.

If I have anything to say about it, anyway. 




The way global warming is going, in the future we will ALL wear less clothes, too.

Flag magicpablo666 December 4, 2012 5:27 PM PST
I think that there may be at least two completely separate kinds of blame, that the English language isn't super good at setting apart.

Blame A, or what might be called selfish Blame is all about blaming someone else for the circumstances you find yourself in. Now, just because it is selfish, doesn't mean it can't also be justified. If your arch-nemesis tosses you into a pit full of hungry crocolions, then you would probably be justified in blaming him or her for your present predicament. The problem with BA is that it doesn't solve your problems. It is not objective. I spent a fair amount of time accompanying certain older members of my family to Alcoholics Anonymous meetings when I was younger (i.e. 9-12 probably), and blame was a thing not encouraged. My hero David Foster Wallace covers this a little in Infinite Jest, as well. His depiction is quite accurate - someone steps forward and gives her testament - a troubled childhood - well in his version, "troubled" is probably a little bit of an understatement - but the point is, the other AAers, though they accept her story, the ones who have made it are silently worried about her, because she still blames the past for her present. It isn't healthy or productive. Recognizing that someone has wronged you is one thing, and holding it against them is another.

Blame B, is what might be called sympathetic Blame, is more like what you're experiencing in your story. Blame B can be just as bad as Blame A, but a lot of the time it is about what is just and right. I think we can all tell the difference between BB and BA.

So, why are people drawn to BB instead of looking at the bright side of your story? Most likely, it is because they are more interested in discussing conflict than unity. Check any media outlet - conflict is what people gravitate towards. I think this is a simple entertainment equation. You may be able to find people that say something like, "Wow. That is terrible that this thing has occurred - but the fact that your team rose above it: that is truly impressive" and all that. But even they will likely find some way to bring conflict into the equation (i.e. "If only the rest of the world could function so conducively, for instance STORY OF CONFLICT).

Okay. That's all I got.
Flag froofroo December 4, 2012 6:34 PM PST
May I ask, dafuc is going on?
Flag FirstTurnKill December 4, 2012 10:06 PM PST

Dec 4, 2012 -- 5:27PM, magicpablo666 wrote:

So, why are people drawn to BB instead of looking at the bright side of your story? Most likely, it is because they are more interested in discussing conflict than unity.



Sympathetic blame is a unifying mechanism that provides a bonding environment between the person in a "bad" situation and the person nearby providing the blame (they can both be in the bad situation).  It functions for the same reason we procrastinate.  We are drawn to be social animals, so the immediacy of the reward of strengthening a relationship by providing sympathetic blame is more relevant than the longer-term reward of overcoming the challenge.

I'd recommend making a couple hypotheses for testing yourself.  Have a friend nearby, and describe a situation you're in: "work on my car was delayed an extra day at the shop" -- and then another situation where the same friend is also present, but also the source of the problem, say another friend even (friend B): "Jim was an hour late from picking me up yesterday."  In which situation do you think friend A is more likely to cast blame?

So again, we provide sympathetic blame *because* we're seeking unity, rather than conflict.  We're just terribly bad as a species at instinctually considering rewards abstracted into the future.  In the past 10,000 years, we've managed to advance the state of our environment faster than evolution has readjusted our traits.

Dec 4, 2012 -- 6:34PM, froofroo wrote:

May I ask, dafuc is going on?



Not sure, I blame isaic.

Flag Glasir December 5, 2012 1:22 AM PST
I appear to be a bit behind the times (i.e., have not looked at this thread in a day or two), but...

Dec 3, 2012 -- 8:05AM, Yxoque wrote:

 If you were a character in a cyberpunk story, how would you look like? You can choose the world and the level of technology. 



Basically the same, perhaps with a few tasteful hints of metal showing to suggest the mechanical improvements I'd no doubt experiment with.

The important part -- that the need to sleep has been removed -- wouldn't be externally obvious, I guess.  

This message brought to you by 4:30 AM, the time at which I say "Screw it, I'm just going to work at 5 today."  Gaaaah insomnia.

But seriously my wishlist for the future is pretty much:
1. Eliminate or drastically reduce need to sleep.
2. Eliminate or drastically reduce need to eat.
...
Distant 3. Memory augmentation.
4. Every cognitive modification from part 2 onwards in Accelerando.

Flag Yxoque December 5, 2012 2:20 AM PST

Dec 5, 2012 -- 1:22AM, Glasir wrote:

Dec 3, 2012 -- 8:05AM, Yxoque wrote:

If you were a character in a cyberpunk story, how would you look like? You can choose the world and the level of technology.


 
The important part -- that the need to sleep has been removed -- wouldn't be externally obvious, I guess.  




Oh god yes. Sleeping is such a necessary evil. 


I'd probably have Deus Ex: HR (which I definitely have to play at some point)-style glasses that serve as a HUD, so I'm constantly connected to the internet. I'd also start wearing a badass longcoat again with some kind of solar panels build in, so it can power at least some of my technology needs. Apart from that I'd look pretty much the same, maybe some ports or glowy bits build into my body, but I'm pretty okay with how I look. I'd also want some kind of weapon (since this seems to be a bit of the norm in such societies). Probably a gun of some kind, something small and relatively easy to conceal, but my main weapon would have to be a sword. Not going to use a katana, since that's very, very cliché. Some middle-size Medieval sword, made out of some kind of future-y material that is light, yet sharp. Maybe I should pair it with a (bullet-proof) shield. No-one will be expecting that. And the shield can double as a monitor.


@Keeper: In the Justice System it's not as much "blame" that is important, but "responsibility". It's mostly  a semantic difference, but responsibility is less governed by emotions. There are also two schools of thought: one that looks as far back as is feasible, and places the responsibility at "the first mover" (there's some fancy Latin term I can't be bothered to look up) and the other that looks at the last cause or something.


@isaic: The "blame game" is rather nonconstructive, and I must say I share your dislike about it. I like people getting [redacted] done and when everyone is throwing around blame, nothing gets done.


That being said, I dislike it even more when a lot of work ends up on my (or a group related to me) plate because someone else made a mistake or judged something wrong. But I complain about it while I'm working.


I think it comes down to a human need for causes. People need their problem to have a cause. "It's no-one's fault," isn't something people are willing to accept. 

Flag KeeperofManyNames December 5, 2012 7:29 AM PST
@Glasir:

I would want to keep eating at least as an option since I'm fond of the whole sharing foods (especially new foods from other cultures) ritual, but I'm definitely with you as far as sleep goes. I'm not sure how you could effectively get rid of that since sleep has so much to do with our ability to retain information, but I suppose if you were augmenting memory anyway it wouldn't be an issue.

I need to read Accelerando. 

@Yxoque:

I figured it was more nuanced than my tendency (possibly uh... slightly influenced by BEAST ENGINE) to demand JUSTICE!!! (And even then, the likelyhood I'll demand FLAMING JUSTICE! is directly correlated to my FLAMING SLEEP DEPRIVATION!)

I didn't know there was a whole philosophical debate about where to start analyzing chains of events, though, although it makes a lot of sense in retrospect. 




Interestingly, I think there's some serious overlap in the two conversations we're having in that one of the main goals of Transhumanism will probably have to be improved judgment heuristics that fine tune our blame (and other) impulses... 
Flag KeeperofManyNames December 5, 2012 4:29 PM PST
You know, no matter how many times I watch it I never quite fully remember how completely bonkers End of Evangelion is. I think that's why it's so good for me to watch when I'm really depressed... it just confuses me to the point where I can't even be sad anymore, because I'm too busy trying to figure out what the hell I'm looking at. It's like... baffle my psychological problems into submission.
Flag Deckhopper December 5, 2012 4:50 PM PST

Dec 4, 2012 -- 1:11PM, isaic16 wrote:

New random topic, as it's something that's been happening lately.

Blame.

Specifically, what is it?  Is it ever beneficial to assess?  And why do we have such an obsession with it?

Context:

Work has been rough of late.  This shouldn't be a surprise, I'm sure just about everyone's work has been rough of late.  The interesting parts are the cause and the result.  There was some kind of event, I don't know the details, about 3-4 levels above me in the company.  The net result is that because of something somebody said to someone, my team got saddled with more work than they could handle, and were basically set up to fail.  The result has been for the team to band together.  Our manager went straight to the head of our customer group, above all the others, and extablished a priority system to determine true needs versus wants.  We have been given a still agressive but achievable goals, and the whole group is pushing forward, agreeing to put in extra work if necessary, to ensure that we can get through this.  It helps incentivize us that we know people we care about will almost certainly be fired if we can't get through this.


Output:

What I find interesting, though, is what happens when I tell this story.  My focus, because it is what is important to me, is to focus on how our team is coming together, how we're circling up and fighting back against impossible odds like we were in a comic book or something.

However, everyone I talk to can't get off the cause.  They ask for questions and details about the people up top, about this mysterious even that caused the work landslide, why they would set us up to fail.  In essense, they focus on blaming people for my situation, not enjoying the story of resilience that I am.  My GF even ranted for several minutes about the jerk guy 3 levels up from me and how this is effectively all his fault, when she's never met him, doesn't know his name, and only knows a second hand-version of a second-hand story.


Request:

Any thoughts or contributions.  It's a part of human nature that always frustrates me.  I have come to open discussions by putting blame on myself, just so I can get past the blame discussion and start working on a solution.  Anyone else have a situation like that?  And is there something here I am missing?  Is it not just desire to blame that makes things like this happen?




"Heroes are made because someone screwed up. We don't want any heroes."

They're focusing on the mistakes of the higher ups for two reasons. One, because no matter how valiant an effort you guys make, you never should have been called on to make that effort. You're basically paying the karmic debt on someone else's mistake, and that doesn't sit right with most people. The other half of the problem is that we have an ir/rational expectation that the people in charge of our jobs are actually competent enough to be our leaders. When they fail to make the proper judgement call, it tends to irk us, even on as an uninvolved third party. Last but not least, conflict just makes for good stories. You and your team are the heroes, so naturally people want to know more about the villains responsible for your predicament.

You know, no matter how many times I watch it I never quite fully remember how completely bonkers End of Evangelion is. I think that's why it's so good for me to watch when I'm really depressed... it just confuses me to the point where I can't even be sad anymore, because I'm too busy trying to figure out what the hell I'm looking at. It's like... baffle my psychological problems into submission.




Ahhh, End of Evangelion, the movie that keeps on giving. Not only has it kept me from getting kicked out of a convention for vagrancy, but it proved how absolutely terrifying my mother can be when, after having only watching it once, she asked, "What's so confusing about that?" And that having never watched the preceding series. I'm with you, Keeper, it's just a mental hammering equivalent to chasing a bottle of tequila with a gallon of gasoline and a woodchip cupcake. And now I want to watch the original series, End, and the new movies in order as one story...

Flag HairlessThoctar December 5, 2012 6:21 PM PST
I'd take End of Eva weird over original Eva weird any day.

I'M ON A BIG BLUE BALL. :/ 
Flag Shamsiel December 5, 2012 7:14 PM PST
Have you guys ever felt that you know there's a community you should join but being too afraid to do so?
Flag Barinellos December 5, 2012 7:31 PM PST

Dec 5, 2012 -- 6:21PM, HairlessThoctar wrote:

I'd take End of Eva weird over original Eva weird any day.

I'M ON A BIG BLUE BALL. :/ 




I bet you ran outta ink too, ya bastards!

Flag HairlessThoctar December 5, 2012 7:31 PM PST
This one.
You're all bonkers and I regret the decision every day.

/levity

What do you have to lose.    
Flag KeeperofManyNames December 5, 2012 7:42 PM PST

Dec 5, 2012 -- 7:31PM, Barinellos wrote:

Dec 5, 2012 -- 6:21PM, HairlessThoctar wrote:

I'd take End of Eva weird over original Eva weird any day.

I'M ON A BIG BLUE BALL. :/ 




I bet you ran outta ink too, ya bastards!


Now, if I were to run away, let's analyze that: WHERE THE #*$& WOULD I GO?!

The movie better sure as hell make up for this!


@Deckhopper:

Wait... your mom watched just End of Evangelion. And understood it instantly. Without watching any of the rest of the series.

...

O_O 

Flag HairlessThoctar December 5, 2012 7:47 PM PST
She's either a dirty, rotten liar or has ascended to a higher plane of human consciousness.
Possibly that of orange juice. 
Flag Deckhopper December 5, 2012 8:29 PM PST
Well, we had to explain who some of the characters are, I'll admit to that. On the other hand, my mother probably has more religious texts in her collection than most public libraries. On top of that, my mother is just damned weird.
Flag Barinellos December 5, 2012 10:26 PM PST
Fly me to the moon, and let me play among the staaars,
Let me see what spring is like, on Jupiter and Mars.
In other wooooords, hold my hand...
Flag BeastEngine December 7, 2012 12:32 PM PST
OKAY SO I'M DEFECTING TO LEGEND OF THE FIVE RINGS I'LL SEE ALL Y'ALL NEVER


this "Magic" garbage can go to hell on a pile of frog penises
Flag Yxoque December 7, 2012 12:51 PM PST

Huh? What? Context, man, context.


Also, you don't need to actually play Magic to post here. I haven't played for who knows how long. Which is sad because I've got a Talrand/Izzet deck that has never been played.

Flag KeeperofManyNames December 7, 2012 12:54 PM PST
Hi Beast Engine.

And uh.

Bye Beast Engine I guess 0_o

I hope that wasn't too serious... but I honestly can't tell. 
Flag magicpablo666 December 7, 2012 3:52 PM PST
A deck that has never been played? That is kinda sad. I guess I have plenty of books that nobody has ever read. Nobody ever will. They will fade to dust without being opened.
Flag BeastEngine December 7, 2012 5:22 PM PST
Nah, I'm just kidding. But seriously, I'm trying to get into Legend of the Five Rings and you need a goddamn bachelor's degree to understand how the damn game works; it's complicated as balls. It looks really cool though, and I want to play it.
Flag Jivanmukta December 8, 2012 7:47 AM PST

Dec 7, 2012 -- 3:52PM, magicpablo666 wrote:

I guess I have plenty of books that nobody has ever read. Nobody ever will. They will fade to dust without being opened.




Are you a fireman?

Flag KeeperofManyNames December 8, 2012 9:30 AM PST

Dec 7, 2012 -- 5:22PM, BeastEngine wrote:

Nah, I'm just kidding. But seriously, I'm trying to get into Legend of the Five Rings and you need a goddamn bachelor's degree to understand how the damn game works; it's complicated as balls. It looks really cool though, and I want to play it.


What makes it so complicated?

I mean, I know they have this crazy tournament-victory-driven storyline but beyond that I don't really know anything about it...

Flag BeastEngine December 8, 2012 9:50 AM PST
The actual turn-to-turn gameplay is just absudly complicated from the perspective of someone trying to get into it. There are so many rules. So many keywords you have to just know. Seriously, I think you have to literally study the rulebook to be able to understand how to play this. But the flavor of the world is really neat, and the clan system is really engaging from an ideological standpoint.

GO MANTIS CLAN, GO CRAB CLAN!
Flag Barinellos December 8, 2012 6:37 PM PST

Dec 8, 2012 -- 9:50AM, BeastEngine wrote:

GO MANTIS CLAN, GO CRAB CLAN!




Bugger that! Go Scorpion clan!

In other news, I dearly miss Animaniacs. As well as a few others like Freakazoid and Tazmania.

Flag HairlessThoctar December 8, 2012 9:09 PM PST

Dec 8, 2012 -- 6:37PM, Barinellos wrote:



In other news, I dearly miss Animaniacs.




The Hub is going to start running Animaniacs in January.

Flag Barinellos December 8, 2012 9:12 PM PST

Dec 8, 2012 -- 9:09PM, HairlessThoctar wrote:

Dec 8, 2012 -- 6:37PM, Barinellos wrote:



In other news, I dearly miss Animaniacs.




The Hub is going to start running Animaniacs in January.




Yeah, I was watching Wakko's Wish when the comment was made.

Flag HairlessThoctar December 8, 2012 9:20 PM PST

Dec 8, 2012 -- 9:12PM, Barinellos wrote:

Dec 8, 2012 -- 9:09PM, HairlessThoctar wrote:

Dec 8, 2012 -- 6:37PM, Barinellos wrote:



In other news, I dearly miss Animaniacs.




The Hub is going to start running Animaniacs in January.




Yeah, I was watching Wakko's Wish when the comment was made.




That's... weirdly coincidental.

Flag Jivanmukta December 8, 2012 9:31 PM PST

Dec 8, 2012 -- 9:09PM, HairlessThoctar wrote:

Dec 8, 2012 -- 6:37PM, Barinellos wrote:



In other news, I dearly miss Animaniacs.




The Hub is going to start running Animaniacs in January.




This sounds excellent.

Flag magicpablo666 December 9, 2012 3:32 PM PST
Speaking of old shows, I've been sifting through a non-animated program called Brisco County Jr. recently. I was infantile when first it aired, but my passion for Bruce Campbell has forced my eyes to view this abomination. It is delightfully bad. Have any of you ever seen it?

If not, perhaps the discussion could be steered in a generally Bruce-oriented direction. New Evil Dead. Looks pretty crappy - am I right?
Flag Deckhopper December 12, 2012 4:29 AM PST

Today's commute sucked. I'm glad the moon took the hit from Nibiru for us and all that, but a couple of the larger bits of debris landed near the apartment. One smacked into the gas tank at the pizzeria across the street, so nowthat's on fire, and I had to go six blocks out of my way to catch the bus. Of course, there was plenty of time because another fragment smacked into the graveyard next to the highway, spilling a bunch of zombies into rush hour. Numbnuts that they are, several dozen people decided to get out of their cars to yell at the undead, so traffic's stuck for about five miles while everyone waits to be rescued by the National Guard, who can't get there because of all the cars parked in their way. A couple of them wandered over to the bus stop, but I managed to beat them off with a broken sign post, messy as that was. The train was at least on time, but only because the slug thing that chose today of all days to rise from the bowels of the Earth got stuck in the tunnel coming down from the airport. Of course, that doesn't mean the damned thing had to shut up, and it didn't help that it sounded like a cat in heat forced to scream through a blender after having its tail run over by a truck and then turned up to jet engine levels and constantly echoed off the tunnel walls. I finally make it into work, fresh migraine and all, only to find out they closed the cafeteria, because hey, why not celebrate the end of the world with a three day floor project. And the absolute worst bit? As I'm standing there trying to figure out what the hell I'm supposed to do for breakfast, the goddamn manager walks by, takes one look at my blood soaked shirt, and tells me he's going to have to write me up for showing up covered in zombie guts! I tell you, some days it just isn't worth getting out of bed.



Happy 12/12/12!

Flag magicpablo666 December 12, 2012 3:40 PM PST
If only.

Are there any end of the world cults in the Multiverse? Considering how prevalent they are on our planet, I would think that there should be quite a few per plane.
Flag magicpablo666 December 12, 2012 7:48 PM PST
Okay. I have a non-Bruce Campbell one.

If you could Being John Malkovich anyone at any time, who and when would it be? Why?
Flag Barinellos December 14, 2012 2:37 AM PST
You know, I am aware that our previous Tavern thread ran 130 pages longer than this, but I think it might be time to put this one to bed and start another just so we don't scare off new people with our massive thread of screaming madness and intellectual terror.

I mean, once you hit 200 pages, things start looking kinda... non-euclidean around here with how our conversations normally go.
Flag Yxoque December 14, 2012 2:50 AM PST

Dec 14, 2012 -- 2:37AM, Barinellos wrote:

You know, I am aware that our previous Tavern thread ran 130 pages longer than this, but I think it might be time to put this one to bed and start another just so we don't scare off new people with our massive thread of screaming madness and intellectual terror.

I mean, once you hit 200 pages, things start looking kinda... non-euclidean around here with how our conversations normally go.



I concur. The previous thread was way too long, to the point of almost becoming sentient and needing a crisis-crossover to defeat.

Flag HairlessThoctar December 14, 2012 5:41 AM PST

Dec 14, 2012 -- 2:50AM, Yxoque wrote:

I concur. The previous thread was way too long, to the point of almost becoming sentient and needing a crisis-crossover to defeat.




I know that was supposed to sound like a deterent, but that sounds amazing.

Flag Yxoque December 14, 2012 5:47 AM PST
"Oh no. The thread is becoming a sentient monstrosity! Whatever shall we do? We need to assemble the Flavor Lords!"
Flag KeeperofManyNames December 14, 2012 6:29 AM PST
[transformation sequence] "Sailor Keeper! Lord of Archives!"


(Also, I agree. And on that note, I think we should unsticky the Intro To The Forum thread. We've got two introduction threads, basically, and only one of them is actually active. Time to clear up board space.)
Flag Jivanmukta December 14, 2012 7:13 AM PST

Dec 14, 2012 -- 6:29AM, KeeperofManyNames wrote:

[transformation sequence] "Sailor Keeper! Lord of Archives!"


(Also, I agree. And on that note, I think we should unsticky the Intro To The Forum thread. We've got two introduction threads, basically, and only one of them is actually active. Time to clear up board space.)




Hopefully the fight won't drag on 300 episodes and we won't need to see the inevitable Keeper/Barinellos fusion.

Flag isaic16 December 14, 2012 7:43 AM PST
New reboot?  I'm down.  I guarantee it will be better than the New 52.

And I think we'll be fine as long as this thread doesn't merge all 5 of the Infinity Threads to create the Infinity Forum.  Then only a series of feints and misdirections, as well as the inherent weaknesses of the thread itself (I assume that to be its semi-gritty nature) will allow us to prevail in the end!

...I'm a geek.
Flag Barinellos December 16, 2012 8:16 PM PST
Q: Why can't you discard Loxodon Smiter ?
A: Show
Because an elephant never forgets
Flag Jivanmukta December 16, 2012 8:17 PM PST

Dec 16, 2012 -- 8:16PM, Barinellos wrote:

Q: Why can't you discard Loxodon Smiter ?
A: Show

Because an elephant never forgets




*sigh*

Flag HairlessThoctar December 16, 2012 8:28 PM PST
Flag KeeperofManyNames December 17, 2012 7:11 AM PST

Dec 16, 2012 -- 8:16PM, Barinellos wrote:

Q: Why can't you discard Loxodon Smiter ?
A: Show

Because an elephant never forgets


D:

Flag Shamsiel December 17, 2012 7:41 AM PST
[Spoiler: Show
]Elephants do frget. Elephants are evil.[
]
Flag HairlessThoctar December 17, 2012 8:17 AM PST
Pardon.
Flag KeeperofManyNames December 17, 2012 10:50 AM PST
On that note, time for a new thread, folks. Anyone have any last words before I initiate the Scratch?
Flag Barinellos December 17, 2012 1:33 PM PST

Dec 17, 2012 -- 10:50AM, KeeperofManyNames wrote:

On that note, time for a new thread, folks. Anyone have any last words before I initiate the Scratch?




I want to pour one out to our lost members.
This one is for Jedi, Troll, Arcades, and Skibo.

Flag KeeperofManyNames December 17, 2012 1:51 PM PST
And here's to Gamma Mage, Arbitracious, Mercer, Eidtelnvil, and Yanmato.

[raises glass]

And of course... to Emrakulpunk. RIP dude. 
Flag BeastEngine December 17, 2012 3:59 PM PST
And me. Don't forget when you lost me. Me being a talkative undead monstrosity doesn't preclude you from honoring my passing, dammit.
Flag KeeperofManyNames December 17, 2012 4:31 PM PST
Oh fine, raise a glass to Beast Engine as well. Damn zombification...

And while we're naming the departed... here's one to Vorthosian Lore Weaver and Dragon Whelp as well. Huh, and It's Always 42 and All Hail The Mill Crab both haven't been around in a while...

Ok, this is actually starting to get really, really sad.
Flag Barinellos December 17, 2012 5:59 PM PST

Dec 17, 2012 -- 4:31PM, KeeperofManyNames wrote:

Dragon Whelp




... Really?
Why not celebrate Goblin War Painter while you're at it?

Flag KeeperofManyNames December 17, 2012 7:32 PM PST
Hey, I liked the guy a lot. He didn't derail things worse than anyone else around here, and he was funny. It wasn't cool the way he was driven off of these boards. Just because you don't like him doesn't mean I can't wish he was still around.
Flag KeeperofManyNames December 17, 2012 11:58 PM PST
We should also probably count Ashtok among the missing. He hasn't been around in a long time either.

Anyone else I'm forgetting?

I have this vague hope that maybe all of these people will magically reappear. I mean... everyone other than Emrakulpunk, obviously. :/
Flag Barinellos December 18, 2012 12:21 AM PST

Dec 17, 2012 -- 11:58PM, KeeperofManyNames wrote:

We should also probably count Ashtok among the missing. He hasn't been around in a long time either.

Anyone else I'm forgetting?

I have this vague hope that maybe all of these people will magically reappear. I mean... everyone other than Emrakulpunk, obviously. :/




Honestly, I mostly want to know what happened to some of them, like Jedi or Troll.

Flag Yxoque December 18, 2012 1:45 AM PST

Wow, talk about a downer ending...


But it's probably important to remember those we lost. The people who made this place what it is, even though they're not around anymore. 


"Introduce Yourself part III: Monument to the Fallen"?


Flag hail_the_mill_crab December 18, 2012 2:23 AM PST
Wow, I guess I have been gone for a while haven't I? I think I gained phasing somewhere along the line and end up somewhere...else.

But I'm back for now!  
Flag KeeperofManyNames December 18, 2012 9:33 AM PST
HOPE SPOT! :D

Welcome back Mill Crab :D

"The movie better sure as hell make up for this..."

Giving it one more hour then starting the new thread. 
Flag isaic16 December 18, 2012 10:37 AM PST
I think this is the page that we end it on.  The tragic memorial, followed by the dramatic moment.  AAAAAAAAND Bam!  Queue sequel bait.

Mill Crab, you're now Agent Coulson.
Flag hail_the_mill_crab December 18, 2012 10:58 AM PST

Dec 18, 2012 -- 10:37AM, isaic16 wrote:

I think this is the page that we end it on.  The tragic memorial, followed by the dramatic moment.  AAAAAAAAND Bam!  Queue sequel bait.

Mill Crab, you're now Agent Coulson.



It's a good thing I saved my vintage Captain America trading cards! I can finally get my whole set signed!

Flag KeeperofManyNames December 18, 2012 12:57 PM PST
And that's a wrap folks. See you in the next thread.

Flyyyy me to the moooon and let me plaaay among the staaaars... 
Flag HairlessThoctar December 18, 2012 1:12 PM PST

Dec 18, 2012 -- 12:57PM, KeeperofManyNames wrote:


Flyyyy me to the moooon and let me plaaay among the staaaars... 




Next time on Introduction thread the third: How Stella Got her Groove Back.

Will Shinji finally stand up to his father?
Why is Asuka such a bitch?
How is Kaoru breathing in space?
And some fan service!    

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