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1 year ago ::
Apr 15, 2012 - 7:17PM
#11
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- UnCon 3CM Master
- Big Game Hunter
Date Joined:
Jul 25, 2005
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This card, if it existed, would almost exclusively be used to protect unfair combos from counterspells.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 15, 2012 - 7:37PM
#12
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Date Joined:
Oct 12, 2009
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I think it's a bit redundant. Counterspells' entire reason for existing is to ensure that other strategies have answers. Mana Leak  is not a game-winning card, it's an answer to your opponent's game-winning card. Do we really need to have answers to the answers?
1) I don't think anyone would argue that Counterbalance  or Erayo, Soratami ascendant  are answers.
2) Hexproof is an answer to removal spells which normally answer creatures. (Or if you prefer a closer parallel to this one-shot answer, there's any number of cards in the Stave Off  family.)
Generally, I think just having a way to say "No my spell is not countered" is just going to make many people feel better (Mostly certain timmies.) It doesn't really matter if it's not good in the end.
This card, if it existed, would almost exclusively be used to protect unfair combos from counterspells.
This much is largely true, however. It's a little bit too...narrow? Something like Gaea's Herald  is a much more elegant solution IMO.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 15, 2012 - 7:52PM
#13
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Date Joined:
Feb 16, 2007
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1) I don't think anyone would argue that Counterbalance or Erayo, Soratami ascendant are answers.
Unless they were setting up a straw-man argument, of course 
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1 year ago ::
Apr 15, 2012 - 8:36PM
#14
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Date Joined:
Mar 23, 2006
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1) I don't think anyone would argue that Counterbalance or Erayo, Soratami ascendant are answers.
and this card doesn't answer either of those.
120.6. Some effects replace card draws.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 16, 2012 - 12:22AM
#15
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As I have been considering the objection to the complexity of the card I proposed, I've been considering the classic blue/red rivalry that used to be present in cards like Red Elemental Blast  and Blue Elemental Blast  along with 0 CMC red cards like Crookshank Kobolds  , Kobolds of Kher Keep  , and Crimson Kobolds  , which suggested a much simpler and slightly weaker card that accomplished the same objective. Flame of Purity  Instant (C)Flame of Purity is red. Counter target spell that targets a spell. The aforementioned Autumn's Veil  is a fine example of blue hate in Standard, but not much else fits the bill. The point of this proposal is to design a card that would not only be useful and not broken in Standard but also useful in extended formats. Some people have misunderstood me regarding counterspells. In any given set, counterspell is not necessarily blue's most powerful ability. It is, however, blue's most powerful staple ability. Every set in every expansion has a counterspell. For those who don't think that the color wheel in general is skewed in favor of blue and becomes more skewed in favor of blue as one goes through extended formats...um....are you kidding me? The point of this design is to try to offer a reasonable one-card fix for all formats not to destroy blue but to bring the color wheel into balance across formats.
"I have seen things you people wouldn't believe. Planeswalkers  on fire off the Seachrome Coast  of Mirrodin. All these spells will be cast like rice at a wedding. Time to duel."
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1 year ago ::
Apr 16, 2012 - 6:35AM
#16
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Date Joined:
May 30, 2010
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[Counterspelling is] blue's most powerful staple ability. Every set in every expansion has a counterspell.
Every set in every expansion has a direct damage spell. Every competitive red deck in every format plays 4 to 12 direct damage spells. Direct damage is red's most powerful ability and gives it free answers to creatures its opponents play, and can even be aimed at the face to finish off a wounded opponent. Yet no one is making a card that says:
Numbing Frost
Instant (C)
Numbing Frost is blue.
Prevent all noncombat damage that would be dealt this turn.
Your goals may be noble, but I don't think making an unconditional free answer to walk all over something you hate is the best way to solve a game design problem.
For those who don't think that the color wheel in general is skewed in favor of blue and becomes more skewed in favor of blue as one goes through extended formats...um....are you kidding me?
If you really want to continue this discussion, why don't you ask on Magic General or any of the competitive forums? I'm sure they'd be happy to discuss your feelings.
Embrace imagination.
Lord of YMtC | Ten Rounds Contest Winner
Solphos – A fan set with a 'combo matters' theme
Fool's Gold – The second set of the Solphos blockMore
Show
Each of its nine tails is imbued with supernatural power, and it can live for a thousand years.
My Standard deck: Setting SunThink of how Neo couldn't beat the robots, but they kept him around anyways to defeat Agent Smith. Sure, the robots might not like having a Neo running rampant because instead of playing their favorite 4 drop fatty robot, they have to play a bunch of one mana Matrixs to contain him, but at least Neo keeps Agent Smith from reanimating an Iona on turn two.
Are you saying I'm trying to blame my loss on something? I don't care that I lost, I care that he's a sore loser, and a cheater, and a liar.
CKY, are you bad at anything?
I really enjoy imagining this from Kevin's perspective. Because in Kevin's world, Rosewater actually reads everything he types. Mark is sitting there right now, reading this, and thinking "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled. . ." Or some such. He chuckles low, then clicks on "The Best Of KEVINSET" and says "Yes, this'll do just fine. A busty lady with banding who deals direct damage to Zones!? Why this will be the star of my next set, and no one will ever believe you Kevin." Then he closes his Macbook, so his servant may move it out of the way, while another servant puts a Fetal Richard Garfield Clone lathered in Steak Sauce in front of him. Then Mark Feasts.
I mean, In KevinWorld, Mark is reading the very words I'm typing as well. Heck, in KevinWorld maybe I am Mark.
I'm beginning to think CKY may be anime in real life...
Don't go anywhere CKY, I need to crash dramatically through your window and propose marriage and I don't want you throwing off my paradrop.
[In response to a thread about how hard grading is]
Upon reading this, I've found myself completely unable to operate in the world. I tried to decide what to eat for breakfast, and pondered the vast consequences of my choice. How do I balance my dietary needs against my desire to eat good-tasting food? Should I factor in how long it takes to prepare? Cereal is ready in moments, but bacon takes longer to cook.
Then there is the impact on other industries. Do people in the cereal industry deserve to be employed more than people in the bacon industry? Which industry should I support? I don't even have the data regarding HOW MUCH the cereal industry benefits from me eating a bowl of cereal, or how much the bacon industry benefits from me eating a side of bacon. How can I compare two qualities I can't even quantify?
And let's not forget the milk on the cereal. In addition to determining whether or not milk is healthy for me, how much that benefits the milk industry, and how much the people in the milk industry deserve my support, we have to factor in the fact that cows are put under brutal conditions in order to collect thier milk. Of course, the same goes for the pigs, and then they get killed. Of course, I really like bacon. So I need to come up with a scale that compares the value of cow happiness to pig happiness to my happiness. What trade-offs am I willing to make here? Does the fact that the pig gets put out of its misery count as a plus or a minus? Isn't bacon bad for me anyway?
Deciding what to eat for breakfast (or any meal) is impossible. Help me!
I must admit chinkeeyong, you have the most interesting character ideas; and you play them well.
Anyway, you'd be surprised about Time Stop. When I first saw that card as a relatively new player I didn't see its full potential until I read the reminder text. Is it that unintuitive, though? Mine I mean. What is possibility? Is it possible for me to type these words with my tusks? No, because I don't have tusks. Although I am now tempted to go buy some - obviously not from poachers or whatever - and use them as typing apparatus. I could be the best secretary ever. "What's your words per minute sir?" "Well, only six, but I use these tusks to type them." "You're hired!" That was the interview. And is anyone else disappointed that "apparati" is not the plural form of apparatus? I just could strangle a dictionary, because "apparatuses" is a real word. I guess it sounds pretty cool. I'll call them my Apparatusks.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 16, 2012 - 7:48AM
#17
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There are lots of staple answers to red's direct damage such as life gain and white instants like Stave Off . They're printed in almost every set. They are staple answers to staple effects. There are hardly any staple answers to blue effects. The proposed card is very weak, and would utterly fail to "walk all over" blue. I think what it would actually do is balance the color wheel, which should be a significant goal of WoTC. EDIT: Also, using a card is not a "free answer". If it said, "Then shuffle Flame of Purity into your library and draw a card", it would be a free answer.
"I have seen things you people wouldn't believe. Planeswalkers on fire off the Seachrome Coast of Mirrodin. All these spells will be cast like rice at a wedding. Time to duel."
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1 year ago ::
Apr 16, 2012 - 8:54AM
#18
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I completley agree that the color wheel is unbalanced. One just has to look at the top decks in every format over the last 5 years. the extreme majority of them have been blue. I do agree that not enough blue hate exist, Mirran Crusader and phyrexian crusader gave us pro everything but blue. However, I do not feel that counterspells are the culprit. I also think that the card proposed would be too good at 0 and really bad at 1. Too many cards have been printed in the other colors that are just too powerful. So people need counterspells to balance them. If anything I think that counter spells should not be one color specific(kinda too late to change that now). In standard, card draw sets blue apart from the other colors. I personally do not like counter spells because I do not like to wait and do nothing so that I can make my opponent do nothing... not very much fun. Blue is one of the few colors that is awlful on it's own. It just draws and counters and then uses other colors to finish off it's opponents. I think the best way to balance blue is to start requireing more blue in its cost, like a UU manaleak instead of a 1U one. Most of what I say is with standard in mind. In my opionion legacy and modern have too many more serious problems than blue being a favorite. I also think that card draw should be more common in the other colors. Also, "Every set in every expansion has a direct damage spell. Every competitive red deck in every format plays 4 to 12 direct damage spells. Direct damage is red's most powerful ability and gives it free answers to creatures its opponents play, and can even be aimed at the face to finish off a wounded opponent. Yet no one is making a card that says:" is not a very well thought response since their are absolutley tons of direct damage hate cards in existence, some very much like that.(yes I know that my spelling and grammar are awlful, but that does not change the validity of any of my arguments)
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1 year ago ::
Apr 16, 2012 - 9:31AM
#19
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Date Joined:
May 30, 2010
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There are hardly any staple answers to blue effects.
[Your response] is not a very well thought response since their are absolutley tons of direct damage hate cards in existence, some very much like that.
As I have already said, the answers to blue exist. They're just more difficult to recognize than other answers. In the same way that lifegain counters direct damage, lots of small, fast threats stop counterspells from being relevant.
Anyway, it's clear that we aren't making any headway by butting our heads like this. I created a thread in Magic General; let's take the discussion there instead, so we don't clutter YMtC with our disagreement.
Embrace imagination.
Lord of YMtC | Ten Rounds Contest Winner
Solphos – A fan set with a 'combo matters' theme
Fool's Gold – The second set of the Solphos blockMore
Show
Each of its nine tails is imbued with supernatural power, and it can live for a thousand years.
My Standard deck: Setting SunThink of how Neo couldn't beat the robots, but they kept him around anyways to defeat Agent Smith. Sure, the robots might not like having a Neo running rampant because instead of playing their favorite 4 drop fatty robot, they have to play a bunch of one mana Matrixs to contain him, but at least Neo keeps Agent Smith from reanimating an Iona on turn two.
Are you saying I'm trying to blame my loss on something? I don't care that I lost, I care that he's a sore loser, and a cheater, and a liar.
CKY, are you bad at anything?
I really enjoy imagining this from Kevin's perspective. Because in Kevin's world, Rosewater actually reads everything he types. Mark is sitting there right now, reading this, and thinking "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled. . ." Or some such. He chuckles low, then clicks on "The Best Of KEVINSET" and says "Yes, this'll do just fine. A busty lady with banding who deals direct damage to Zones!? Why this will be the star of my next set, and no one will ever believe you Kevin." Then he closes his Macbook, so his servant may move it out of the way, while another servant puts a Fetal Richard Garfield Clone lathered in Steak Sauce in front of him. Then Mark Feasts.
I mean, In KevinWorld, Mark is reading the very words I'm typing as well. Heck, in KevinWorld maybe I am Mark.
I'm beginning to think CKY may be anime in real life...
Don't go anywhere CKY, I need to crash dramatically through your window and propose marriage and I don't want you throwing off my paradrop.
[In response to a thread about how hard grading is]
Upon reading this, I've found myself completely unable to operate in the world. I tried to decide what to eat for breakfast, and pondered the vast consequences of my choice. How do I balance my dietary needs against my desire to eat good-tasting food? Should I factor in how long it takes to prepare? Cereal is ready in moments, but bacon takes longer to cook.
Then there is the impact on other industries. Do people in the cereal industry deserve to be employed more than people in the bacon industry? Which industry should I support? I don't even have the data regarding HOW MUCH the cereal industry benefits from me eating a bowl of cereal, or how much the bacon industry benefits from me eating a side of bacon. How can I compare two qualities I can't even quantify?
And let's not forget the milk on the cereal. In addition to determining whether or not milk is healthy for me, how much that benefits the milk industry, and how much the people in the milk industry deserve my support, we have to factor in the fact that cows are put under brutal conditions in order to collect thier milk. Of course, the same goes for the pigs, and then they get killed. Of course, I really like bacon. So I need to come up with a scale that compares the value of cow happiness to pig happiness to my happiness. What trade-offs am I willing to make here? Does the fact that the pig gets put out of its misery count as a plus or a minus? Isn't bacon bad for me anyway?
Deciding what to eat for breakfast (or any meal) is impossible. Help me!
I must admit chinkeeyong, you have the most interesting character ideas; and you play them well.
Anyway, you'd be surprised about Time Stop. When I first saw that card as a relatively new player I didn't see its full potential until I read the reminder text. Is it that unintuitive, though? Mine I mean. What is possibility? Is it possible for me to type these words with my tusks? No, because I don't have tusks. Although I am now tempted to go buy some - obviously not from poachers or whatever - and use them as typing apparatus. I could be the best secretary ever. "What's your words per minute sir?" "Well, only six, but I use these tusks to type them." "You're hired!" That was the interview. And is anyone else disappointed that "apparati" is not the plural form of apparatus? I just could strangle a dictionary, because "apparatuses" is a real word. I guess it sounds pretty cool. I'll call them my Apparatusks.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 16, 2012 - 10:21AM
#20
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Date Joined:
Oct 12, 2009
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@Fallingman and Razorborne: You know why that point led with the 1)? Because it's PART of an argument and NOT MEANT to stand on its own. Not every counter is just an answer; and especially when certain densities of counterspells are played alongside each other, even one-shot counterspells can start to look like "Plan A." "Counter everything" is not a valid strategy, but "counter everything until I have enough mana to resolve a finisher with counter backup" sometimes is. We could go into a long breakdown of how different archetypes interact with a deck of that type, (with differing levels of simplification) but it's not like having tools to combat that type of thing SPECIFICALLY is inherently evil or obsoletes the archetype (even when it might be played around anyway), any more than Vines of Vastwood  or Asceticism  are evil things that obsolete spot removal that can be sometimes played around anyway. [Counterspelling is] blue's most powerful staple ability. Every set in every expansion has a counterspell.
Every set in every expansion has a direct damage spell. Every competitive red deck in every format plays 4 to 12 direct damage spells. Direct damage is red's most powerful ability and gives it free answers to creatures its opponents play, and can even be aimed at the face to finish off a wounded opponent. Yet no one is making a card that says:
Numbing Frost
Instant (C)
Numbing Frost is blue.
Prevent all noncombat damage that would be dealt this turn.
Your goals may be noble, but I don't think making an unconditional free answer to walk all over something you hate is the best way to solve a game design problem.
For those who don't think that the color wheel in general is skewed in favor of blue and becomes more skewed in favor of blue as one goes through extended formats...um....are you kidding me?
If you really want to continue this discussion, why don't you ask on Magic General or any of the competitive forums? I'm sure they'd be happy to discuss your feelings.
Leyline of Sanctity  ? Brave the Elements  ? Is you argument against a 0-cmc answer in particular, or against the idea in general?
Blue shouldn't be, and  isn't,  immune to having hate cards printed against it. The form that hate takes is up in the air, but all this talk of "this hate doesn't need to exist" is silly. Hate ALWAYS exists and is VERY IMPORTANT to the health of the game EVEN WHEN it doesn't get played.
EVEN IF a card like this is just catering to players upset against blue, that's a suitable thing to exist.
This entire argument has somehow conflated "The OP is bad at magic" with "Counterspell hate doesn't need to exist." The two are UNRELATED.
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