I played in the first Seattle PTQ this weekend in Lubbock, and there was a rule change that caught everyone by surprise. Apparently, sleeves that have holograms on the front (i.e. Ultra Pro) can no longer be used, and only sleeves with nothing on the front are legal (Dragon Shield, KMC).
Does anyone know of the rationale behind it, or what Ultra Pro did to tick Wizards off for them to make this ruling?
I played in the first Seattle PTQ this weekend in Lubbock, and there was a rule change that caught everyone by surprise. Apparently, sleeves that have holograms on the front (i.e. Ultra Pro) can no longer be used, and only sleeves with nothing on th
I don't know the exact reasons behind it, but my guess is that it would have to do with marking a sleeve. People can't pay as close attention to a sleeve if it has patterns on it, so a person may mark a card, and the opponent wouldn't really notice anything differently. I'm still of the belief that marking cards is dumb and gives you such a small advantage that it's neglegable, but that's all that I can think of.
I know there was/is a rule about how you can't have super shiny sleeves, because people may "accidentally" start to draw two to see the reflection of the next card in the sleeve. I still say it's dumb, but that's how the game goes.
I don't know the exact reasons behind it, but my guess is that it would have to do with marking a sleeve. People can't pay as close attention to a sleeve if it has patterns on it, so a person may mark a card, and the opponent wouldn't really notice
Seriously. They probably caught one person attempting to cheat with them in one tournament and went insane with trying to prevent it from happening again. I mean you can't look at the front of the card anyway so I'm not even sure how you can cheat.
It could have been a local ruling and not a ruling by wotc. They would have announced this kind of change on their website. Unless I missed something.
Seriously. They probably caught one person attempting to cheat with them in one tournament and went insane with trying to prevent it from happening again. I mean you can't look at the front of the card anyway so I'm not even sure how you can cheat.It
It wasn't local. The TO had a printed out list of the new rules that went into effect with the new PTQ, and had highlighted the part about the sleeves to show everyone. Unless it was misinterpreted by a lot of people (myself included), there has been a change.
It wasn't local. The TO had a printed out list of the new rules that went into effect with the new PTQ, and had highlighted the part about the sleeves to show everyone. Unless it was misinterpreted by a lot of people (myself included), there has be
Actually here is the wording in 3.10 of the MTR, third paragraph, last sentence:
"sleeves with holograms across some or all of the sleeve front or back are not allowed"
This was interpreted that even the little Ultra-Pro hologram wasn't allowed.
Actually here is the wording in 3.10 of the MTR, third paragraph, last sentence:"sleeves with holograms across some or all of the sleeve front or back are not allowed"This was interpreted that even the little Ultra-Pro hologram wasn't allowed.
Im going to go out on a limb and say that was probably grossly misinterpreted. It seems highly unlikely considering all of the licensing deals between WOTC and Ultra Pro, and that WOTC's own website describes Ultra Pro as "the leading manufacturer of trading card game sleeves and deck boxes. They make Magic portfolios, card storage boxes, deck boxes, sleeves, and playmats".
Also Im pretty sure there is no reasonable way for the tiny Ultra Pro trademark symbol to be used for cheating.
Im going to go out on a limb and say that was probably grossly misinterpreted. It seems highly unlikely considering all of the licensing deals between WOTC and Ultra Pro, and that WOTC's own website describes Ultra Pro as "the leading manufacturer o
I agree with you, especially due to the Ultra Pro agreement, which is why I found it surprsing that he enforced it as such. Just wondering if anyone else had had a similar experience or if Wizards had make any sort of clarification on the subject.
I agree with you, especially due to the Ultra Pro agreement, which is why I found it surprsing that he enforced it as such. Just wondering if anyone else had had a similar experience or if Wizards had make any sort of clarification on the subject.
Also Im pretty sure there is no reasonable way for the tiny Ultra Pro trademark symbol to be used for cheating.
Believe it or not, it can be used for marking cards. Sometimes you can find sleeves with identical backs, but the hologram is on a different side. So you could do 56 cards with right-side hologram, and 4 with left-side. If you're particularly good at it, you could use that to know if the bomb you need is coming in your next draw.
Believe it or not, it can be used for marking cards. Sometimes you can find sleeves with identical backs, but the hologram is on a different side. So you could do 56 cards with right-side hologram, and 4 with left-side. If you're particularly good at
Sometimes you can find sleeves with identical backs, but the hologram is on a different side. So you could do 56 cards with right-side hologram, and 4 with left-side.
I must be dense, but I still don't understand how anything that is on the front of the sleeve can be used to help you distinguish between cards when you can only see their backs.
Still, though, since a hologram is shiny like a mirror, I suppose it could reflect a light from somewhere else.
My first guess would be that anything which obscures part of the face of their card is somehow a violation of Wizards' trademarks, though, rather than a danger of cheating.
I must be dense, but I still don't understand how anything that is on the front of the sleeve can be used to help you distinguish between cards when you can only see their backs.Still, though, since a hologram is shiny like a mirror, I suppose it cou
It's not actually about the hologram, but about what it does to the entire sleeve. You can put a stack of sleeves (or individual sleeves) under something heavy (like a book), allowing the sticker to create an impression on the back of the sleeve. If you look at brand new Ultra Pro sleeves, there is always a little circle on the back of every sleeve where the sticker is on the front of that sleeve. Usually, every sleeve in a pack has the sticker in the same location, but you can probably mix packs or move the sticker to change the indention's location on certain sleeves, allowing you to mark your deck.
It's not actually about the hologram, but about what it does to the entire sleeve. You can put a stack of sleeves (or individual sleeves) under something heavy (like a book), allowing the sticker to create an impression on the back of the sleeve. I
The ultra-pro sleeves with the dot on them are perfectly fine--the point of that particular line in the MTR is to deal with sleeves with a holographic pattern that partially or completely obscures the card face. That's the official word from Scott Marshall.
The ultra-pro sleeves with the dot on them are perfectly fine--the point of that particular line in the MTR is to deal with sleeves with a holographic pattern that partially or completely obscures the card face. That's the official word from Scott Ma
I must be dense, but I still don't understand how anything that is on the front of the sleeve can be used to help you distinguish between cards when you can only see their backs.
The hologram is slightly raised; when you put a commander deck in ultra pro sleeves with the hologram in the lower right corner, the tilt in the deck is quite obvious. Some people can detect the difference at a single-sleeve level.
The hologram is slightly raised; when you put a commander deck in ultra pro sleeves with the hologram in the lower right corner, the tilt in the deck is quite obvious. Some people can detect the difference at a single-sleeve level.
The MTR mentions the little holograms in the corner, and says that you just have to make sure that the holograms appear on the face of the cards.
3.10 Sleeves
Players may use plastic card sleeves or other protective devices on cards. If a player chooses to use card sleeves, all sleeves must be identical and all cards in his or her deck must be placed in the sleeves in an identical manner. If the sleeves feature holograms or other similar markings, cards must be inserted into the sleeves so these markings appear only on the faces of the cards.
The MTR mentions the little holograms in the corner, and says that you just have to make sure that the holograms appear on the face of the cards.
I never even thought about that way to cheat. Seriously. And I know all the shell games.
So, does this make my Chandra (UltraPro, one pack) sleeves obsolete?
I never even thought about that way to cheat. Seriously. And I know all the shell games.So, does this make my Chandra (UltraPro, one pack) sleeves obsolete?
This ruling was a misinterpretation of Wizards' policy. Normal, undamaged Ultra-Pro sleeves with the tiny hologram on the face are perfectly legal in all tournaments.
The T.O. of the Lubbock PTQ raised this question on the official judge mailing list immediately after the tournament in question, as he was unsure of the correctness of the ruling. I am sure he regrets any confusion or inconvenience caused by this mistake.
It seems likely the wording of the MTR will be updated in the next cycle to prevent this kind of confusion in the future.
This ruling was a misinterpretation of Wizards' policy. Normal, undamaged Ultra-Pro sleeves with the tiny hologram on the face are perfectly legal in all tournaments.The T.O. of the Lubbock PTQ raised this question on the official judge mailing list
It's not actually about the hologram, but about what it does to the entire sleeve. You can put a stack of sleeves (or individual sleeves) under something heavy (like a book), allowing the sticker to create an impression on the back of the sleeve. If you look at brand new Ultra Pro sleeves, there is always a little circle on the back of every sleeve where the sticker is on the front of that sleeve. Usually, every sleeve in a pack has the sticker in the same location, but you can probably mix packs or move the sticker to change the indention's location on certain sleeves, allowing you to mark your deck.
I was curious about this, I've checked like 5 years of decks in sleeves and not a single one of them got any hologram circle. I'll actually put a few sleeves under some of my weights (2X50 lbs and a 40 lbs bar, so 70 lbs per sides) for a night. I'm curious to see if I'll see a circle or not.
I was curious about this, I've checked like 5 years of decks in sleeves and not a single one of them got any hologram circle. I'll actually put a few sleeves under some of my weights (2X50 lbs and a 40 lbs bar, so 70 lbs per sides) for a night. I'm c
Believe it or not, it can be used for marking cards. Sometimes you can find sleeves with identical backs, but the hologram is on a different side. So you could do 56 cards with right-side hologram, and 4 with left-side. If you're particularly good at it, you could use that to know if the bomb you need is coming in your next draw.
That small of an advantage really isn't worth the trouble.
That small of an advantage really isn't worth the trouble.
9 hours later, with 70 lbs of pressure, there's absolutely no hologram ring on the other side of the sleeve. The only thing that stand out is the little grain of dust that actually made a little dent in the sleeve. If I couldnt achieve a ring in 9 hours with 70 lbs of pressure, I'm guessing that getting a whole deck marked somehow would be very difficult.
9 hours later, with 70 lbs of pressure, there's absolutely no hologram ring on the other side of the sleeve. The only thing that stand out is the little grain of dust that actually made a little dent in the sleeve. If I couldnt achieve a ring in 9 ho
I will now proceed to make a deck with differently aged foils and use the varying bends to determine my draws.
I've actually heard stories of people succesfully getting a judge to rule that their opponent had marked cards because some were foil and some weren't. That's probably not a path you want to go down.
I've actually heard stories of people succesfully getting a judge to rule that their opponent had marked cards because some were foil and some weren't. That's probably not a path you want to go down.
9 hours later, with 70 lbs of pressure, there's absolutely no hologram ring on the other side of the sleeve. The only thing that stand out is the little grain of dust that actually made a little dent in the sleeve. If I couldnt achieve a ring in 9 hours with 70 lbs of pressure, I'm guessing that getting a whole deck marked somehow would be very difficult.
That's odd. Mine came out of the pack with indentations. They did disappear after several games of shuffling and sleeving/desleeving cards.
That's odd. Mine came out of the pack with indentations. They did disappear after several games of shuffling and sleeving/desleeving cards.
It's not actually about the hologram, but about what it does to the entire sleeve. You can put a stack of sleeves (or individual sleeves) under something heavy (like a book), allowing the sticker to create an impression on the back of the sleeve. If you look at brand new Ultra Pro sleeves, there is always a little circle on the back of every sleeve where the sticker is on the front of that sleeve. Usually, every sleeve in a pack has the sticker in the same location, but you can probably mix packs or move the sticker to change the indention's location on certain sleeves, allowing you to mark your deck.
I was curious about this, I've checked like 5 years of decks in sleeves and not a single one of them got any hologram circle. I'll actually put a few sleeves under some of my weights (2X50 lbs and a 40 lbs bar, so 70 lbs per sides) for a night. I'm curious to see if I'll see a circle or not.
Do they have the Ultra-Pro holo circle to begin with?
Also, I'm pretty sure that they come out of the package with the dent due to air pressure pucking in on the back, and not direct pressure.
Did you have cards in the sleeves? If so, they may have taken the force of the sticker, and not the softer sleeve.
I was curious about this, I've checked like 5 years of decks in sleeves and not a single one of them got any hologram circle. I'll actually put a few sleeves under some of my weights (2X50 lbs and a 40 lbs bar, so 70 lbs per sides) for a night. I'm c
It's not actually about the hologram, but about what it does to the entire sleeve. You can put a stack of sleeves (or individual sleeves) under something heavy (like a book), allowing the sticker to create an impression on the back of the sleeve. If you look at brand new Ultra Pro sleeves, there is always a little circle on the back of every sleeve where the sticker is on the front of that sleeve. Usually, every sleeve in a pack has the sticker in the same location, but you can probably mix packs or move the sticker to change the indention's location on certain sleeves, allowing you to mark your deck.
I was curious about this, I've checked like 5 years of decks in sleeves and not a single one of them got any hologram circle. I'll actually put a few sleeves under some of my weights (2X50 lbs and a 40 lbs bar, so 70 lbs per sides) for a night. I'm curious to see if I'll see a circle or not.
Do they have the Ultra-Pro holo circle to begin with?
Also, I'm pretty sure that they come out of the package with the dent due to air pressure pucking in on the back, and not direct pressure.
Did you have cards in the sleeves? If so, they may have taken the force of the sticker, and not the softer sleeve.
Of course I used hologramless sleeves to test if putting pressure on a sleeve with an hologram would do a ring to ID it. Also I put 5 cards in each sleeves to make sure they would absorb the ring and I could claim that I didnt see any ring and that grain of dust (super tiny rock) that was stuck in one of the sleeves was obviously air pressure pucking.
Are you kidding me?
I was curious about this, I've checked like 5 years of decks in sleeves and not a single one of them got any hologram circle. I'll actually put a few sleeves under some of my weights (2X50 lbs and a 40 lbs bar, so 70 lbs per sides) for a night. I'm c
Relax, MoiMoi. From what I read, it looked like those may have been an oversite or two. If there were no cards and there were the holograms (which penny sleeves by Ultra-Pro don't have), we'll get the exact results we're looking for. Otherwise it may be worth a second look. Again, I don't know if it's direct pressure or suction. I do however like to know the results of experiments and exactly how they are done.
Relax, MoiMoi. From what I read, it looked like those may have been an oversite or two. If there were no cards and there were the holograms (which penny sleeves by Ultra-Pro don't have), we'll get the exact results we're looking for. Otherwise it may
I took 2 new sleeves, OBVIOUSLY with hologram, OBVIOUSLY without any card in the middle to absorb the ring shape of the hologram, because OBVIOUSLY it was what the whole experiment was about..... I put them on the floor, which wasnt immaculate, I took my 40 lbs bar and added a 50 lbs weight on each side and I put it on the sleeves, to have 1 sleeve on each side
The results after 9 hours, both sides had not even a hint of a ring with 70 lbs of pressure and the ONLY dent I saw was NOT made by any packaging, it was made by a LONE grain of dust (or if you prefer a tiny tiny rock) that was STUCK in the sleeve when I picked it up, I dont see how you could confuse that with anything else than a floor with dust on it...
I took 2 new sleeves, OBVIOUSLY with hologram, OBVIOUSLY without any card in the middle to absorb the ring shape of the hologram, because OBVIOUSLY it was what the whole experiment was about..... I put them on the floor, which wasnt immaculate, I too
I believe it would be a better test if you used a stack of sleeves rather than just 2. That would create more significant thickness around the dot in a stack of 50 or 100 and would apply more pressure to that one spot. Might also want to just stack the weights on top of a book, thats how I flattened my sleeves after they got distorted during shipping. But I didn't take them out of the package and only used 50 lbs of weight for 300 sleeves.
I believe it would be a better test if you used a stack of sleeves rather than just 2. That would create more significant thickness around the dot in a stack of 50 or 100 and would apply more pressure to that one spot. Might also want to just stack t
