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1 year ago ::
Apr 11, 2012 - 10:41AM
#71
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Date Joined:
Oct 23, 2003
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I hope so  After the mention of Panglacial Wurm  , I wondered if there's a much simpler way to do this, and with just one ability and no need to update the rules about drawing cards: Miracle X means "While you are drawing this card, you can cast it by paying [X] rather than paying it's mana cost if you've drawn no other cards this turn." Maybe it's too much of a long sentence... but I think it would work? EDIT: Of course it's slightly different functionality, but I don't see why having a trigger is essential to the mechanic.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 11, 2012 - 11:56AM
#72
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Miracle can work just fine as a replacement effect. (It might need an addition to 112.6, but nothing more.) Functioning in a hidden zone is not a problem from a rules perspective. It's only a potential problem from an enforcement perspective, and Miracle doesn't have an enforcement problem.
The inherent problem with abilities that function while a card is in a hidden zone isn't that such abilities can't possibly work there--as far as the rules are concerned there's no reason why they can't. The problem is that when the cards are hidden it's impossible for players to enforce the game state properly--they might not even know that something needs to happen without seeing the card, or they might get the wording wrong, or a player might try to cheat because their opponent can't confirm what the game needs to happen. That's why 603.2e (non-visible triggers don't trigger) exists--not because the game can't handle them, but because players can't enforce them.
400.6 exists because there might be multiple contradictory replacement effects trying to replace an object's movement--but that's again intending to solve an enforcement problem, not a rules one. Without it, then the players might get midway through performing the action called for by one replacement effect before realizing that there's another replacement effect that could have or should have been applied.
But Miracle works well enough from an enforcement perspective already. The exact sequence of actions players perform may not quite line up with game-rules reality (they'll look then reveal rather than reveal right away), but it amounts to the same thing in the end.
And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
--Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary
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1 year ago ::
Apr 11, 2012 - 5:17PM
#73
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Alter the draw rule
120.1. A player draws a card by putting the top card of his or her library into his or her hand. This is done as a turn-based action during each player’s draw step. It may also be done as part of a cost or effect of a spell or ability. If it is the first card drawn that turn, the player may reveal the card if it has the ability "Miracle". It stays revealed until the end of the draw step.
Miracle updated
702.91a Miracle affects the way the card is drawn (see rule 120.1) allowing you to reveal it if it is the first card drawn that turn, and is a triggered ability (see rule 603.10). "Miracle [cost]" means "When you reveal this card while drawing it, you may cast it by paying [cost] rather than its mana cost."
I added the part about revealing it until the end of the draw step because I realized the card would currently be un-revealed between revealing it and casting it, so there would be no way to ensure it was the same object. This may be of no real significance, but it would still be an internal error if another card of the same name were to be cast instead.
The remain revealed part isn't needed as the rules for revealing a card already cover situations like this. Whilst this rules doesn't specifically mention triggered abilities as an example, I expect that they will add that in the next rules update.
701.13a To reveal a card, show that card to all players for a brief time. If an effect causes a card to be revealed, it remains revealed for as long as necessary to complete the parts of the effect that card is relevant to. If the cost to cast a spell or activate an ability includes revealing a card, the card remains revealed from the time the spell or ability is announced until it the time it leaves the stack.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 11, 2012 - 6:19PM
#74
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2006
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I know that is not the same, but probably the players will use "miracle" similary to "kinship"
I mean with kinship you look the card during your upkeep, if it doesn't share type then it is the card that they regular will draw and so they draw (if they weren't planning to play anything else during the upkeep).
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1 year ago ::
Apr 12, 2012 - 5:31AM
#75
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Date Joined:
Oct 23, 2003
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MJWhitefield1: Ah yes good point thank you, I wasn't aware of that rule. So the card automatically stays revealed.
zammm: Thanks for clearing it up for me. I couldn't specifically find a rule that says it wouldn't work, but I certainly couldn't find a rule which would make it work either. I still think it's a bit fuzzy about when exactly you're given the "chance" to reveal cards to display replacement effects that can suddenly impact an event that is about to happen, I don't think that's specifically covered. Maybe just a clarification on this point is needed since this mechanic seems to create a new and unique situation. As things stand I don't think I could discern from the rules the exact sequence that would be followed- it's like players are given a psuedo-priority in which to reveal cards with replacement effects from hidden zones.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 14, 2012 - 8:16AM
#76
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Date Joined:
Oct 13, 2010
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What about the Miracle getting discarded to Desperate Ravings at random, although being drawn as the first card? Are you still allowed to cast it?
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1 year ago ::
Apr 14, 2012 - 8:23AM
#77
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Date Joined:
Oct 18, 2009
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What about the Miracle getting discarded to Desperate Ravings at random, although being drawn as the first card? Are you still allowed to cast it?
You can't cast it, because it is not on your hand anymore.
[<o>]
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1 year ago ::
Apr 14, 2012 - 8:59AM
#78
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Date Joined:
Oct 23, 2003
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So... going back to what Zammm said about continuous abilities working in hidden zones:
Does this mean if you had a card that said, "While this card is in your hand, creatures you control get +1/+1", that would technically work within the rules? Yet it would be absolutely impossible to enforce in any way without somehow "announcing" the ability and having a third party to confirm it?
I really hope there are some extra supporting rules to explain exactly how and when you reveal Miracle cards. Say there are extra replacement effects to apply to your card draw... do you reveal this card first and then start applying them? Can you apply some and then reveal it? The rules don't say. I don't think it's in any way clear as this has never happened before.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 14, 2012 - 1:40PM
#79
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Does this mean if you had a card that said, "While this card is in your hand, creatures you control get +1/+1", that would technically work within the rules? Yet it would be absolutely impossible to enforce in any way without somehow "announcing" the ability and having a third party to confirm it?
Yes. R&D will never print a card that says that because it's unenforceable, but as far as the rules are concerned it functions perfectly well.
Say there are extra replacement effects to apply to your card draw... do you reveal this card first and then start applying them? Can you apply some and then reveal it? The rules don't say. I don't think it's in any way clear as this has never happened before.
I actually think there's a fairly direct precedent: Leyline of the Void  -type effects + Regeneration-type effects. (To clarify: Miracle modifies what it means to draw the card; draw-replacement effects modify whether or not you're drawing in the first place. Similarly, Leyline of the Void (and similar cards) modify what it means to destroy a permanent, while regeneration modifies whether or not the permanent is destroyed at all.)
The difference here is that you won't know about the meaning-modification until the action-modification is performed, but that doesn't change the basic interaction, because the action-modification will make the meaning-modification irrelevant. While I do think there might be some concerns, they're not specific to Miracles, but the interaction between action-modifications and meaning-modifications in general, and those issues exist already even without Miracles. And in any event, it's possible that the rules will be modified in the Avacyn Restored update in a way that addresses these concerns.
And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
--Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary
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1 year ago ::
Apr 14, 2012 - 7:58PM
#80
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Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2004
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And in any event, it's possible that the rules will be modified in the Avacyn Restored update in a way that addresses these concerns.
For openers, I fully expect rule 614.1c to be expanded or copied to handle the "as you draw it" phrase.
No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.
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