|
1 year ago ::
Apr 01, 2012 - 12:35PM
#1
|
Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2009
|
Hey all  I bought the Koth  vs Venser  Duel Deck today, and I noticed a problem in the rules/strategy insert that tells you how to use the decks (5rd paragraph of Koth's page): "Later, you can cast him and use him (Koth) and use his mana ability to follow up with a powerful creature..." However, the Comp Rules say: "605.1a An activated ability is a mana ability if it meets three criteria: it doesn't have a target, it could put mana into a player's mana pool when it resolves, and it's not a loyalty ability. (See rule 606, "Loyalty Abilities.")" Apparantly, Matt and Del edited the product, so I am surprised they let this slip through... (Yes, I am being a bit tongue-in-cheek here, and not entirely serious. However, players seem to struggle to understand what a "mana ability" is already (for example, some think that any ability that costs mana is a mana ability) - getting it wrong in an official instruction guide doesnt sound like a good idea to me, so there kinda is a point to this thread) :P ~ Tim
 Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D Sig
Show
That makes no sense to me.
If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed?
~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise  in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch  . YAY COLOR IDENTITY 
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Apr 01, 2012 - 1:10PM
#2
|
|
|
(5rd paragraph of Koth's page)
Did you mean to say 3rd paragraph or 5th paragraph?
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Apr 01, 2012 - 1:50PM
#3
|
Date Joined:
Feb 27, 2007
|
What is the reason that Loyalty abilities can't be mana abilities?
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Apr 01, 2012 - 2:00PM
#4
|
|
|
What is the reason that Loyalty abilities can't be mana abilities?
The rules explicitly disallow that.
605.1a An activated ability is a mana ability if it meets three criteria: it doesn’t have a target, it could put mana into a player’s mana pool when it resolves, and it’s not a loyalty ability.
As for why, I believe the reason is that, if Koth's second ability were a mana ability, it could be activated when mana abilities can be when asked for a payment including mana.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Apr 01, 2012 - 2:50PM
#5
|
Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2009
|
(5rd paragraph of Koth's page)
Did you mean to say 3rd paragraph or 5th paragraph?
Its the 5th, or the 6th if you include the intro at the top. Whatever... its the last paragraph (almost said that to start with (wish I had now)). 
As for why, I believe the reason is that, if Koth's second ability were a mana ability, it could be activated when mana abilities can be when asked for a payment including mana.
Wouldnt the normal timing restrictions for Loyalty abilities stop that anyway?
Maybe it was just to make it use the stack (so it could be Stifle  d etc)?
---
Back to the original topic: it got me wondering, how are new players expected to learn what a mana ability is (without looking up the definition in the Comp Rules - something that new players arent supposed to do)? Neither of the inserts in the Duel Deck tell you (and the part I quoted earlier actually gets it wrong)... So I downloaded the Basic Rulebook, which says this:
"Each basic land has a mana ability that makes one mana of a particular color."
and:
"Mana ability An ability that adds mana to your mana pool. Mana abilities can be activated abilities or triggered abilities. A mana ability doesn’t go on the stack when you activate it or it triggers—you simply get the mana immediately."
Which is also an incomplete definition, and doesnt make it sound like Loyalty abilities cant be Mana abilities (since they can fit that description). On the other hand, I can only find 43 cards in Gatherer that use the term, and nothing since M10 (barring reprints in precons like the Commander decks or other Duel Decks). Is the term being kept off cards deliberately? Is it supposed to be a rule buried beneath the surface of the game? ~ Tim
Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D Sig
Show
That makes no sense to me.
If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed?
~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch . YAY COLOR IDENTITY
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Apr 01, 2012 - 6:18PM
#6
|
|
|
On the other hand, I can only find 43 cards in Gatherer that use the term, and nothing since M10 (barring reprints in precons like the Commander decks or other Duel Decks). Is the term being kept off cards deliberately? Is it supposed to be a rule buried beneath the surface of the game?
I can't find the article, but I recall reading that when making magic 2012 they considered making grand abolisher  's ability effect all activated abilities except mana abilities. They changed to the current wording when because there reaserch indicated that too many players didn't know the definition of a mana ability.
Edit: Found the article.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Apr 01, 2012 - 6:23PM
#7
|
|
|
On the other hand, I can only find 43 cards in Gatherer that use the term, and nothing since M10 (barring reprints in precons like the Commander decks or other Duel Decks). Is the term being kept off cards deliberately? Is it supposed to be a rule buried beneath the surface of the game?
I can't find the article, but I recall reading that when making magic 2012 they considered making grand abolisher 's ability effect all activated abilities except mana abilities. They changed to the current wording when because there reaserch indicated that too few many players didn't know the definition of a mana ability.
I know that one. When I first started playing, I thought activated mana abilities didn't count as activated abilities...
As long as it's random, I really can't see where's the problem. Anyway, there's already a few standard ways for doing this. We listed them in this thread. If someone does the bogey-bogey, eats the cards, waits until they come out, look out the approximate order, place replacements in the same order, calls the president to ask him to give him a string of numbers, puts the card in the given order, then pick the cards in the order given by taking the date of birth of his opponent, reversed, and taking only every other number, then a judge can clearly declare that he's random enough.
The beauty of sarcasm is that when the person using it is totally incorrect, you can just remove the sarcasm and end up with a post that is actually correct.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Apr 02, 2012 - 2:29AM
#8
|
|
|
As for why, I believe the reason is that, if Koth's second ability were a mana ability, it could be activated when mana abilities can be when asked for a payment including mana.
Wouldnt the normal timing restrictions for Loyalty abilities stop that anyway?
Apparently not.
I checked the September 2010 Update Bulletin and found this.
605.1a
A new criterion for an ability to qualify as a mana ability was added: it can't be a loyalty ability. Without this addition, the timing rules for mana abilities would have conflicted (and overrode) the timing rules for loyalty abilities. This ensure's that Koth of the Hammer's second ability is not a mana ability.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Apr 02, 2012 - 2:35AM
#9
|
Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2009
|
Some interesting stuff, thanks guys!
Maybe Wizards should bite the bullet, and print a deliberately educational card that references Mana Abilities, and then explains what they are with reminder text, in M13.
Until players do know what they are though, I think they should avoid printing incomplete explainations or using the term incorrectly.
~ Tim
Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D Sig
Show
That makes no sense to me.
If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed?
~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch . YAY COLOR IDENTITY
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Apr 02, 2012 - 2:39AM
#10
|
Date Joined:
Apr 25, 2005
|
Seems to me like someone used the common-English expression "mana ability" (i.e. "ability that makes mana") and forgot that this term has a specific rules meaning that the card does not meet.
|
|
|
