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1 year ago ::
Apr 02, 2012 - 2:53AM
#11
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2009
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Seems to me like someone used the common-English expression "mana ability" (i.e. "ability that makes mana") and forgot that this term has a specific rules meaning that the card does not meet.
I would like to hope that that is the case (rather than Wizards putting someone in charge of writing an instruction leaflet when they dont actually know the rules).
~ Tim
 Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D Sig
Show
That makes no sense to me.
If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed?
~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise  in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch  . YAY COLOR IDENTITY 
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 02, 2012 - 3:48AM
#12
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Date Joined:
Sep 19, 2008
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I checked the September 2010 Update Bulletin and found this. 605.1a
A new criterion for an ability to qualify as a mana ability was added: it can't be a loyalty ability. Without this addition, the timing rules for mana abilities would have conflicted (and overrode) the timing rules for loyalty abilities. This ensure's that Koth of the Hammer's second ability is not a mana ability.
Now the question is: Why don't the timing rules for normal activated abilities override the timing rules for loyalty abilities?
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1 year ago ::
Apr 02, 2012 - 5:40AM
#13
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Maybe Wizards should bite the bullet, and print a deliberately educational card that references Mana Abilities, and then explains what they are with reminder text, in M13.
That does not seem that useful to me. There are only a handfull of cases where a player needs to know what a mana ability is.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 02, 2012 - 6:04AM
#14
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Now the question is: Why don't the timing rules for normal activated abilities override the timing rules for loyalty abilities?
My answer? Because Magic works by giving a set of permissions, and these permissions are additive.
Normal abilities can be activated whenever a player could cast an instant, unless a rule or effect states the ability can only be activated when a player could cast a sorcery. Thie restriction is incorporated into the rules to avoid having to print "Activate this ability only when you could cast a sorcery" three or more times per Planeswalker; which would cut down the available space for abilities significantly.
However, you get additional permission to activate mana abilities during the process of casting a spell, activating an ability or resolving a spell, ability or special action. I believe it is this permission that sidesteps the restriction.
I can think of two cards that have mana abilities with a restriction that prevents them being activated during the casting of a spell or other similar times when you don't have priority, and they are Lion's Eye Diamond  and Rhystic Cave  . They have the timing restriction of being cast only when you could cast an instant. (They could say "only when you have priority," but avoid that probably because "priority" is not being used in its normal English sense.)
I guess that, given a choice between adding the "Activate only when you could cast a sorcery" rider to Koth's second ability and changing the rules so loyalty abilities can't be mana abilities, they chose the latter as less problematic.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 02, 2012 - 6:38AM
#15
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Date Joined:
Jan 19, 2003
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Thie restriction is incorporated into the rules to avoid having to print "Activate this ability only when you could cast a sorcery" three or more times per Planeswalker; which would cut down the available space for abilities significantly.
However, you get additional permission to activate mana abilities during the process of casting a spell, activating an ability or resolving a spell, ability or special action. I believe it is this permission that sidesteps the restriction.
Additional permissions can't sidestep restrictions, but they wouldn't have to here. The important thing to note about loyalty abilities is that they do not impose a restriction that it has to be any time you could cast a sorcery. Instead, the rules for loyalty abilities give you permission to play it at that time, and just omit mention of any other times. Notice that the word "only" is absent from the text in bold (yes, it uses the word "only" for the second part, and that part is a restriction)
606.3. A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent he or she controls any time he or she has priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of his or her turn, but only if no player has previously activated a loyalty ability of that permanent that turn.
So if something else comes along (ie, the rules for mana abilities) and grants an additional permission, 606.3 has no complaint about that, provided no loyalty ability of that permanent has been activated yet this turn.
I can think of two cards that have mana abilities with a restriction that prevents them being activated during the casting of a spell or other similar times when you don't have priority, and they are Lion's Eye Diamond and Rhystic Cave .
Grinning Ignus 
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1 year ago ::
Apr 02, 2012 - 6:58AM
#16
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- Celestial Teapots are broken!
Date Joined:
Feb 24, 2007
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Even setting aside the possibility that it being a mana ability would change the timing rules, I think it's a good thing that Koth's ability isn't a mana ability. Mana abilities are special in that they resolve immediately, without needing to use the stack. This property is absolutely essential in order for mana abilities to work while something is being cast/activated or while something is resolving. However, if the ability doesn't have these special timing opportunities, resolving immediately just seems inconsistent.
Maybe the rules of mana abilities should even be tweaked so that those "only whenever you could cast an instant/sorcery" abilities are excluded.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 02, 2012 - 7:56AM
#17
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Date Joined:
Sep 19, 2008
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Now the question is: Why don't the timing rules for normal activated abilities override the timing rules for loyalty abilities?
My answer? Because Magic works by giving a set of permissions, and these permissions are additive.
Precisely. There's a rule telling us that we can activate abilities whenever we have priority. This includes loyalty abilities. There's no rule stopping this from applying to loyalty abilities. There's just another rule that grants additional permissions to activate loyalty abilities plus a restriction to do so only once per turn. Therefore, the rules allow for loyalty abilities to be played during combat or during an opponent's turn. Even if we all know that's not right 
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1 year ago ::
Apr 02, 2012 - 3:30PM
#18
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Date Joined:
Dec 29, 2010
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Some interesting stuff, thanks guys!
Maybe Wizards should bite the bullet, and print a deliberately educational card that references Mana Abilities, and then explains what they are with reminder text, in M13.
Until players do know what they are though, I think they should avoid printing incomplete explainations or using the term incorrectly.
~ Tim
*fires up the editor*
Like this?
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1 year ago ::
Apr 02, 2012 - 3:33PM
#19
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2009
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Like this?
Would be even better if you could work into it the fact that mana abilities dont use the stack so cannot be responded to, but yeah, thats the sort of thing (or even a reprint of one of the cards the mentions them, like Pithing Needle  - only with reminder text).
~ Tim
Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D Sig
Show
That makes no sense to me.
If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed?
~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch . YAY COLOR IDENTITY
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 02, 2012 - 3:42PM
#20
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Date Joined:
Dec 29, 2010
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Like this?
Would be even better if you could work into it the fact that mana abilities dont use the stack so cannot be responded to, but yeah, thats the sort of thing (or even a reprint of one of the cards the mentions them, like Pithing Needle - only with reminder text).
~ Tim
I think it would be nice. Mentioning the stack in reminder text seems fine ( Sundial of the Infinite  ), but the whole thing might be a little wordy.
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