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1 year ago ::
Mar 25, 2012 - 10:01PM
#11
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I voted for non-targetted, but you made an excellent argument. One of the best articles I've seen from you in a while.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 25, 2012 - 10:07PM
#12
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2002
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Non-targeted, if only because Misdirection effects exist. Additionally, please stop printing these as Sorcery.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 25, 2012 - 10:12PM
#13
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Date Joined:
Oct 17, 2007
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Great article. It seems that you really went above and beyond the usual for today (no doubt these are arguments you've made several times at WotC), and I can't wait to hear what Zac has to say. MinusPrimes' point and the MTGO clicking point are things I hadn't considered, but I do like the target version. They enable multiplayer moves and combo well with stuff like Underworld Dreams and Black Vise . Unlike Ertai87 and Qmark, I think it's a good thing that Redirect spells have as much utility as possible.
"People want balance but can't accept this homogenization that occurs as a result of that balance being implemented. then they complain that the fighter is weaker than the wizard ad nauseam.: - Teitan
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1 year ago ::
Mar 25, 2012 - 10:27PM
#14
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Date Joined:
Oct 27, 2007
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Non-targeted, if only because Misdirection effects exist. Additionally, please stop printing these as Sorcery.
They used to print a similar spell at 4cc but instant, but ended up deciding that it gave draw-go decks too much power.
Nowadays, they print it at 5cc, but with some benefit. For example Think Twice can be split into two payments, Mysteries of the Deep allows you to use it during your turn, if you played a land, for 3 cards. So... more versatility.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 25, 2012 - 10:31PM
#15
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Date Joined:
May 17, 2009
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I voted for no as well, under the assumption that the less complex version should be the default unless a substancial reason exists for introducing complexity. Multiplayer is a reason targeted draw cards should exist in large enough numbers (larger numbers than what we currently have, I would say), but not enough on its own to make it the default IMO.
I have to admit, I hadn't considered targeted draw as a pedagogical tool for new players. Certainly, that adds to the argument that targeted draw should exist, even at low rarity and/or core sets. I'm still not convinced, however, that it means we should make this the default.
Profile picture by Mackenzie Schubert www.plaincomics.com
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1 year ago ::
Mar 25, 2012 - 10:45PM
#16
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I voted for no as well, under the assumption that the less complex version should be the default unless a substancial reason exists for introducing complexity.
Ironically, this "less complexity" argument fails because it doesn't acknowledge the necessary complexity of the principle from which it purports to argue. That is, "less complexity" is merely a principle with lots of room for nuance and, well, complexity. If it were not, we'd be playing War. Or Slapjack.
I vote for non-targeted. It's cleaner, requires less clicks for MTGO and DotP, dodges redirect effects, and I feel there are better ways for people to help others in multiplayer.
I voted for targeted draw because it interacts with redirect effects.
I like that the article makes the case that complexity isn't bad. However, it falls short of really explaining what kinds of complexity are good and what are bad. Emergent complexity, the type that occurs when two cards interact in a way that is more (or less) that the sum of their parts, is good. It's really good. It is, in fact, the very fundamental principle on which a customizeable game like Magic works. Ensuring that the primary parts of the game work together is necessary to create the sort of game where interesting and meaningful interactions take place between cards printed a few months ago and those printed in the '90s.
The other kind of complexity, what I think of as "artificial complexity" is the realm of parasitic mechanics, and dead-end design. It's a fence around play, improvisation, and resourcefulness. Artificial complexity should be used carefully, at the limits of the game, to "scaffold" things. This is the realm of specific rules interactions. An example from a recent rules update:
800.4c Okay, here's a fun one. This new rule is in the section that handles a player leaving a multiplayer game. Say Mark Rosewater, Aaron Forsythe, and I are in a three-player game. I cast Bribery targeting Mark and put his Maro (what else?) onto the battlefield under my control. Aaron then casts Act of Aggression, taking control of it until end of turn. While Aaron controls it, I leave the game. Nothing happens to Maro at this point as I neither own nor control it. When Act of Aggression's effect wears off, what happens to Maro? Its original controller has left the game. It feels weird to just leave it under Aaron's control because the effect giving him control of it just wore off. It feels weird giving it to Mark because he never controlled it. I decided exiling it was the choice most consistent with other rules handling what happens to objects when a player leaves the game. Is that intuitive? Maybe. How about easily deduced if you know other, more basic, rules? Not at all. That's the kind of "bad complexity" that Magic should avoid. Sure, that's somewhat tangential to the wording in question. "You draw two cards" is hardly parasitic. It's actually rather atomic in its design. The problem, though (and what it shares with the above example) is that it is also inert in its design. There are no compounds, or synergies, or anything. That design inertia is perfectly fine when it comes to creatures (say, Grizzly Bear), because creatures are in essence already interactive cards because of the rules of combat. However, when it comes to the very non-interactive business of drawing extra cards, it's much more important that the game support (but not require) some additional complexity there. In sum, it's about creating something that works within a system, and not as an encapsulated extension of that system. "Target player..." accomplishes one vital thing that "You..." does not: It promotes the principle of emergent complexity.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 25, 2012 - 11:19PM
#17
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I voted no and after reading the article am still firmly in the "No, this is adding complexity for little gain" camp. I could see making occasional targetted draws with multiplayer in mind, but not behind making it the default.
The end is always nigh.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 26, 2012 - 12:33AM
#18
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Date Joined:
May 15, 2010
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I'd like to point out not a problem with the debate, but with the point/counterpoint system in general. While I think it's a fantastic idea, I don't like having the point and counterpoint separated by nearly a week. I understand it's where Latest Developments falls, but I think it would be better suited having both sides of the issue presented on the same day.
Rules Nut Advisor
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1 year ago ::
Mar 26, 2012 - 12:56AM
#19
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Date Joined:
Sep 10, 2005
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I said No, because it only seems to make sense based on flavour. I don't like the idea of card drawing becoming the 'alternate' burn you out via cards (instead of life) simply because it's messy. I remember judging at GP Canberra, and it wasn't until top 8 that anyone spotted a player who was using Compulsive Research while they ran True Believer as a regular threat. They targeted themselves constantly. After X many rounds of play, no one, player or opponent, had pointed out that C Research has the word "target" on it.
While I am definately fine with the occasional card drawing card to be targeted, especially where it makes sense. In triple Ravnica, it was certainly possible to build the Mill your opponent deck, and targeting them for three was totally a viable win condition. It'd be acceptable in Innistrad too, but certainly not every card.
Targeted draw is OK within the game, and feels very special when it shows up. But having it normally target makes it less special and more run-of-the-mill. The best parallel I can think of is when Combat damage no longer stacked. While I was in favour of that move (now you had to choose, trade your Sakura Tribe Elder or fetch a Basic?) I don't think it'll be the same with card draw.
No more "Wow, some card draw cards can target?" moments. Simply "Yep, another card draw card." A few people remembering the days when card draw wasn't auto-targeted, before being Redirected and having people Donate True Believers for their draw-go deck.
Also "YOU draw two cards" is very stupid. "Draw two cards" is as simple as you need it. I'd change my answer to "neither" if that's the alternative.
Remember "Destroy target land" Mark?
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1 year ago ::
Mar 26, 2012 - 2:12AM
#20
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- Randomly humming since 2001
- Unconventional Mafia Pro
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I voted "no" for targeting by default. I definitely like to see the occasional "target player draws cards" every now and then.
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