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Switch to Forum Live View 03/26/2012 MM: "Point/Counterpoint: Targeted Card Draw?—Yes"
1 year ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 12:21PM #1
Garmichael
Date Joined: Jun 24, 2008
Posts: 1,572

This thread is for discussion of this week's Making Magic, which goes live Monday morning on magicthegathering.com.

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1 year ago  ::  Mar 25, 2012 - 9:08PM #2
Seeker_after_Chaos
Date Joined: Aug 31, 2005
Posts: 394
Calling it: "Targeted" wins today because nobody actually cares about new players enough to silence their knee-jerk votes for function.

...because that's what I did!
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 25, 2012 - 9:13PM #3
Netbrian
Date Joined: Mar 5, 2011
Posts: 3
I vote for non-targeted.  It's cleaner, requires less clicks for MTGO and DotP, dodges redirect effects, and I feel there are better ways for people to help others in multiplayer.  However, if mill effects are intentionally being pushed in a set, I'd use targeted card draw.
Props to whomever did the awesome Lenticular Cat, which was the high point of the article
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 25, 2012 - 9:15PM #4
Thalatta
Date Joined: Apr 16, 2011
Posts: 151
I voted "no" because the question is asking about the *default* - being able to target is potentially more useful/powerful, so should go on cards that are intentionally designed to be more flexible, more complex, or rarer. In my opinion, the default should be whatever we would expect to be the starting point for an effect.
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 25, 2012 - 9:15PM #5
Ertai87
Date Joined: Jan 20, 2004
Posts: 811
I voted non-targeted.  As Netbrian said, non-targeted dodges most redirection.  It also dodges some narrow counterspells that counter spells with targets which tend to come up in Limited.  Getting blown out by Redirect is pretty awful.
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 25, 2012 - 9:21PM #6
willpell
Date Joined: Feb 26, 2004
Posts: 4,835
I INTIMIDATE YOU WITH MY WORDS THEY ARE EXCESSIVE IN NUMBER AND YOU ARE FRIGHTENED BY THEM!  LET YOUR TINY BRAIN QUAIL AT THE NEED TO COMPREHEND MORE THAN THE BARE MINIMUM OF NECESSARY LANGUAGE!  MWAHAHAHAHAH!!!

But on a coincidentally similar but unrelated note, "You draw two cards" is unnecessary redundancy.  The imperative "Draw two cards" looks professional and lacks nothing in terms of clarity.

Oh, and teachers who repeat a lesson five times are pointlessly insulting the students who were smart enough to comprehend it the first time, and those are more important than the ones who require repetitions.  If there must be repetition, let it happen in remedial classes after the academic winners have been allowed to move on to a more challenging and useful class.  We need to stop trying to make our society stupider; it prevents us from growing and improving in ways that will be beneficial to those who get left behind in the short term.  They might feel bad about being exceeded, but those feelings will pass, and coddling them will stifle their betters and cause the whole of society to stagnate.

And Mark fails logic by using the number of "target"s in M12 as both proof of a problem and evidence of the solution.
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 25, 2012 - 9:38PM #7
Minus_Prime
Date Joined: Oct 5, 2010
Posts: 1,074
The Lava Axe comparison makes sense in theory, but not in practice. Take Rest for the Weary . I've had newer players ask out loud, "Why would I want you to gain life...?" It's like it just doesn't occur to new players that they themselves are "players". Or maybe they assume up front that anything "targeted" must be "aimed", and you would only ever aim things at other people.
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 25, 2012 - 9:47PM #8
chronego
Date Joined: Jul 6, 2011
Posts: 1,285
I voted for no, because it makes more sense for the default to be the simpler version. If anything will convince me (we'll have to see after Zac's article) it would be the multiplayer argument. Having reason to let your opponent draw cards in a duel is just too unlikely for me to consider it worth changing the default.

Mar 25, 2012 -- 9:21PM, willpell wrote:

Oh, and teachers who repeat a lesson five times are pointlessly insulting the students who were smart enough to comprehend it the first time, and those are more important than the ones who require repetitions.  If there must be repetition, let it happen in remedial classes after the academic winners have been allowed to move on to a more challenging and useful class.  We need to stop trying to make our society stupider; it prevents us from growing and improving in ways that will be beneficial to those who get left behind in the short term.  They might feel bad about being exceeded, but those feelings will pass, and coddling them will stifle their betters and cause the whole of society to stagnate.


You want us to stop making society stupider, but the way you propose to do this is to ignore those who need more help? Besides, Mark's point wasn't even that instructors should repeat something five times for the class to understand it; his point was the repetition makes it more likely that the students will remember it.

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1 year ago  ::  Mar 25, 2012 - 9:50PM #9
Godavari
Date Joined: Mar 12, 2012
Posts: 7
I totally agree on Mark's point #3. Personally, I can still remember the awesome feeling I got when I first realized what cards like Enfeeblement were supposed to do. "Auras are supposed to go on my creatures, right? So why would I give it -2/-2? Wait... You mean I can put it on my opponent's creatures? Far out!" That's a really cool thing about Magic. It's just got so much potential to make oneself feel clever. And I fully support Mark's effort to add more of those moments to the game.
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 25, 2012 - 9:51PM #10
zammm
Date Joined: Jul 3, 2003
Posts: 27,264
I love love love this concept for an article series. Design philosophy is one of my favorite things to read about, so an entire series dedicated to bringing up interesting design arguments and expounding on both sides of the issue? Fantastic.

I also like the idea of polling the audience (in both articles, I hope) to see what they think, because trying to figure out how your average player thinks is another thing I enjoy.

Mar 25, 2012 -- 9:38PM, Minus_Prime wrote:

The Lava Axe comparison makes sense in theory, but not in practice. Take Rest for the Weary . I've had newer players ask out loud, "Why would I want you to gain life...?" It's like it just doesn't occur to new players that they themselves are "players". Or maybe they assume up front that anything "targeted" must be "aimed", and you would only ever aim things at other people.


That actually seems to be a nice counterpoint against what I thought was the strongest point of the article. It'd be interesting to see the numbers on that.

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