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1 year ago ::
Mar 21, 2012 - 11:02AM
#1
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Anyone noticed that the  planeswalker that is more often criticised as being "evil" was the heroine of the Innistrad plot after all?
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1 year ago ::
Mar 21, 2012 - 11:12AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Mar 27, 2011
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I would seriously hesitate to call Liliana a "heroine." She may end up freeing Avacyn (directly or indirectly) from the Helvault, but all she cares about is getting at Griselbrand. The liberation of Avacyn is pretty much just an unavoidable consequence of the freeing of Griselbrand, at least from Liliana's perspective. Hell, does she even know that Avacyn is in the Helvault?
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1 year ago ::
Mar 21, 2012 - 11:16AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Dec 27, 2009
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Well, she does now.
Seriously though, I suppose whether or not she knew if Avacyn was in there depends on how she knew Griselbrand was in there, which I'm not sure was made explicitly clear.
If she just went around interrogating folks until she found one of the archbishops present for Avacyn and Griselbrand's duel, she couldn't have not known.
If she just has an ability to 'sense' Griselbrand, and knew he was in the vault instinctively or something like that, then probably not.
Either way, the point is kind of moot since the only thing on Innistrad she cares about is finding and killing Griselbrand.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 21, 2012 - 12:00PM
#4
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The point is that she did more than the planeswalker that is more often held as a protagonist, Sorin Markov. And I think she had to be able to detect Griselbrand, since no one who witnessed Avacyn was at then alive. Unless zombiefying Mikaeus granted her the information she required.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 21, 2012 - 12:08PM
#5
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I won't deny Liliana's actiona are ultimately helping Innistrad, so this year she is Good Guys. I wouldn't have argued she was incapable of being Good Guys in the first place- she's not predisposed toward being Bad Guys just because she uses black mana.
But keep in mind she's only acting as a heroine because her own personal interests just happen to line up with the interests of the humans of Innistrad. She's not freeing Avacyn out of the goodness of her heart- Avacyn's not even her primary goal. Lili's here for Lili.
Not that the Innistradi humans are complaining, I'm sure. Beggars can't be choosers.
"The truth resists simplicity." Some memorable quotes
Show
I know, as a good liberal scholar, that I'm supposed to respect every other belief and culture and what have you that comes along but... at the end of the day, when all is said and done, some things are just plain wrong.
Venser "Ah, Hello Myr. This is the King. Long Time no see. We thought today would be a good day for rolling. The Myr Battlesphere. The Myr. Where the first rolls and the second follows. Roll, roll, roll. For that purpose we went to the bother, the bother of fixing up Mirrodin. The King of the Multiverse going to the bother just for rolling a Myr Battlephere, just for that, we went to the bother."
Heard a joke once: Mare goes to doctor. Says she's depressed. Says life seems harsh and cruel. Says she feels all alone in a threatening world where even ponies you thought were your friends can't be trusted. Doctor says "Treatment is simple. Go to one of Pinkie Pie's great parties tonight. Party hard. That should pick you up." Mare bursts into tears. Says "But, doctor...I am Pinkie Pie." Good joke. Everypony laughs. Roll on snare drum. Curtains. Fade to black.
Sure, "the average person" might go see Transformers 3 if s/he wants a good story, but that doesn't stop people from making decent movies. Hell, they even managed to make Batman into a respectable movie. "The average" person might like American Idol or Jersey Shore, but people still made The Wire.
I think the people who would sit down and listen to a minstrel reciting Homer, or thought that novels were art, or read poetry were always a minority. It's a common viewpoint that art was better in the past because everyone's forgotten the bad stuff, while we haven't had time to forget the awful stuff that is current.
For almost all Magic fans, the "story" of Ravnica, for example, is that it's a city world with ten guilds -- yes, for most, that's a "story." All but a tiny fraction of the fan base are entirely unaware of an elaborate plot perpetrated by Augustin IV to trick Agrus Kos and Szadek into breaking the Guildpact, thereby enabling the Azorius to take control. Likewise, the vast majority of Magic players don't know who Harbin is, or Nivea, or Al-Hayat, or Feather, or Jared Carthalion, or Rebbec, or Zagorka ... the list goes on and on.
I'm pulling this out of nowhere and it has nothing like fact attached to it, but it cannot be disproven without breaking the fourth wall, and this is going to be my headcanon because it makes perfect sense.
I posit [Tamiyo, the Moon Sage] writes the Planeswalker's Guides to planes.
CANON is the collected events and details of a fictional work that come directly from its author or someone with equal authority to the author.
CANNON is a weapon that fires metal balls at a target, usually a structure or a crowd of enemy combatants.
Every time you confuse the two, I'm forced to break one of my own fingers.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 21, 2012 - 12:34PM
#6
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- Unconventional Mafia Pro
- Dark Lord
Date Joined:
Jun 25, 2001
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Lili is a selfish woman-of-ill-repute, but I suppose we cannot now say that *no* good has come of her actions. If we're going to apply "good" and "evil" to the situation I still call her story arc evil versus evil. We're allowed to root for liliana because the demons are honestly worse, not because we really want her to 'win'.
"Enjoy your screams, Sarpadia - they will soon be muffled beneath snow and ice." THE COALITION WAR GAME-Phyrexian Praetor Round 1: (4-1-2, 1 kill) Round 2: (16-8-2, 4 kills) Round 3: (18-9-2, 1 kill) Round 4: (22-10-0, 2 kills) Round 5: (56-16-3, 9 kills) Round 6: (8-7-1) [current round] Last Edited by Ralph on blank, 1920
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1 year ago ::
Mar 21, 2012 - 12:36PM
#7
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Date Joined:
May 28, 2009
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I won't deny Liliana's actiona are ultimately helping Innistrad, so this year she is Good Guys. I wouldn't have argued she was incapable of being Good Guys in the first place- she's not predisposed toward being Bad Guys just because she uses black mana.
But keep in mind she's only acting as a heroine because her own personal interests just happen to line up with the interests of the humans of Innistrad. She's not freeing Avacyn out of the goodness of her heart- Avacyn's not even her primary goal. Lili's here for Lili.
Not that the Innistradi humans are complaining, I'm sure. Beggars can't be choosers.
Wasn't she protagonist...ish in Agents? I don't think she was a 'good guy', but she certainly wasn't evil there...
The point is that she did more than the planeswalker that is more often held as a protagonist, Sorin Markov.
And I think she had to be able to detect Griselbrand, since no one who witnessed Avacyn was at then alive. Unless zombiefying Mikaeus granted her the information she required.
I had always assumed the zombifying thing was how she got the information. he seems well enough preserved that he could have proivded it, and I had assumed that's why she wanted him in the first place.
Susan Summerson from the Hell breaks loose Flavorful Voting Game http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29076567/Hell_breaking_loose:_an_Avacyn_Restored_voting_game?pg=1 Click here for more Forum Games: Spoiler:
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Susan Summerson also appeared in the Innistrad Mafia Game
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28609371/Innistrad_Mafia?pg=1
Writer of Nally Bear from The Gathering Flavorful Voting Game:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28846821/The_Gathering:_M12_flavorful_voting_game?pg=1
Writer of Phyrex the Myr from Phyrexia Reborn:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27993097/Phyrexia_Reborn:_A_Flavorful_Voting_Game?pg=1
Writer of Tinker the Myr from Legacy of Karn:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/26647005/Karns_Legacy_(A_flavorful_voting_game)
Writer of Crusader Tolkana, who has appeared in:
Eldrazi Awaken: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/24071149/Eldrazi_Awaken:_A_flavorful_voting_game?pg=1
Colors of Magic: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/25352501/Colors_of_Magic:_a_flavor_game?pg=1
Guildwars III:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/26082093/Guildwars_III:_Shattered_Pact_(A_flavorful_voting_game)?pg=1
Writer of Isaic from Treasures of Zendikar
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/22819881/Treasures_of_Zendikar?post_id=402182877#402182877
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1 year ago ::
Mar 21, 2012 - 12:50PM
#8
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But keep in mind she's only acting as a heroine because her own personal interests just happen to line up with the interests of the humans of Innistrad. She's not freeing Avacyn out of the goodness of her heart- Avacyn's not even her primary goal. Lili's here for Lili.
Most certainly, specially because she is acting out of despair as time runs out for her, so whatever sympathy she has cannot be afforded. Still, she must be aware that her actions will be seen as good by the locals, so I do think she would try to cultivate some gratitude from the natives if only to further suit her own needs.
If we're going to apply "good" and "evil" to the situation I still call her story arc evil versus evil. We're allowed to root for liliana because the demons are honestly worse, not because we really want her to 'win'.
The problem is that all we know is that she wants to kill demons. We don't know what she will do after that goal is accomplished, and judging by AOA, she does seem to have enough empathy to be a neutral person rather than pure evil, so presumably she won't be that much of a danger once she kills her masters.
I had always assumed the zombifying thing was how she got the information. he seems well enough preserved that he could have proivded it, and I had assumed that's why she wanted him in the first place.
If so, she MUST have known Avacyn was in the Helvault. All the more reasons to cheer for her now.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 21, 2012 - 3:43PM
#9
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Yeah, honestly, Lili isn't evil except when her back is against the wall. If left to her own devices, she'd gladly trollop around with sugar daddies until she milked them for all they were worth. Even then, I think she's smart enough to avoid doing that because that means more work as she tries to ingratiate herself to a new sugar daddy.
Essentially, gal's a gold digger, but that's hardly the worst thing to be.
Of course, we still have the hanging mystery of the Raven Man and the Onakke to consider too. There's more on the field than just the demons and Lili.
Hell, it even explicitly says that she's getting worried about the influence the veil is excercising these days but she has no other choice.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 21, 2012 - 4:00PM
#10
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And, well, didn't she want to be with Jace anyway? If so, even the gold digging would cease.
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