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1 year ago ::
Mar 25, 2012 - 2:28AM
#21
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Date Joined:
Jul 20, 2011
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Just because Call to the Grave is underpowered doesn't mean the solution is to tear down every normal-powered card that it lags behind due to its coding.
thats basically what u r proposing with every other card, except Call to the Grave  is affected by more cards. Seriously, souls of the faultless  bug is one of the less problematic, i just found it like a week ago, and i play a lot.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 27, 2012 - 10:05AM
#22
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Date Joined:
Jul 24, 2010
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The point I'm making is there should not be a banned list.
It's an interesting idea, but even if the world agreed to it it would be flawed.
It would be flawed because the list as you provide it punishes decks that already need help (i.e. taking slagstorm out of SoS??) but then does nothing to fix overpowered decks that benefit further from bugs other cards have.
I think it's kind of a chicken and egg issue- some of you are saying it's not hex proof/Prot Black/Shroud that are bugged because Woebringer Demon and Call to Grave don't work properly against them, but rather it's those two cards that are bugged. The bug could, however, be with the shrouding effects also. In any event you're saying "Well we can't ban THAT bug because it would effect too many decks/cards so just remove the weakend cards from the decks"- but that's not good enough. You need to be consistent and what you're suggesting is to hamstring already limping decks but do nothing to many overpowered decks (namely auramancer and beknighted).
I could say "Well don't make me remove Souls of the Faultless because Pyroclasm doesn't work properly with it, remove instead all global damage spells and then you won't have that problem" - you can go around and around with this logic.
I'm not in support of removing all shrouded creatures. I'm not in support of removing ANY cards from my options. I'm just saying that what you're suggesting is not feasible and this is one of the reasons why.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 27, 2012 - 10:34AM
#23
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Just take out call to the grave, its OP and bugged. Besides, if you need call to the grave to win a game, except for extraordinary circumstances, ide say your skill is somewhat lacking and more experience is required.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 27, 2012 - 3:45PM
#24
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Date Joined:
Jun 27, 2009
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Just because Call to the Grave is underpowered doesn't mean the solution is to tear down every normal-powered card that it lags behind due to its coding.
thats basically what u r proposing with every other card, except Call to the Grave is affected by more cards. Seriously, souls of the faultless bug is one of the less problematic, i just found it like a week ago, and i play a lot.
I've had Souls  cost me a game or two. I discovered it when I used Slagstorm  as part of a combo to remove it, ouch indeed.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 28, 2012 - 7:24AM
#25
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Date Joined:
Dec 20, 2011
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I've seen Call to the Grave make people get rid of shroud/hexproof/protection from black cards. From what I've seen it's only zombies that are safe from it.
So I don't know about all these bugs people are talking about, I certainly get plenty of bugs when playing in various ways, whether it be my attack phase being skipped or random freezing, but Call to the Grave has never been a problem for me when I've used it
And let's not act like Shroud/Hexproof cards are all that protected anyways. Curfew, Cultural Exchange (only for hexproof), the 2 mana/3 mana kicker card in Vampire, and the Sacrifice Two Attacking Creatures card all can get rid of Shroud/Hexproof cards, and Curfew is only 1 mana so there are plenty of ways around Shroud/Hexproof. The real problem is idiots who play Aura and just drop one creature and jack it up as large as possible forgetting how easy it is to take 1 creature off the battlefield in various different ways, even with hexproof on it.
The biggest complaint I have....and it's completely not card related at all, is when an opponent uses a tap ability on your turn it speeds up your timer and you get almost no time to cast in your first summon phase.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 28, 2012 - 9:57AM
#26
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Date Joined:
Dec 22, 2011
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^damn that was a pretty harsh response... I get it though.. I too can get annoyed by some comments on the board. However I still slightly care enough to say that we shouldn't be turning onto eachother.. The reason people are getting annoyed is because frankly in my opinion, without any further updates or support this game's metagame is pretty much set in stone and to be honest, I'm not really happy how it turned out... As in, this game has been fun before all the glitches, but '09 is now so much better, I hope a new proper game will be announced soon.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 28, 2012 - 10:03AM
#27
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I agree with you though Kefko, apart from the odd random game theres not usually many variations in win-cons. Ive only ever milled 1 opponent online, compared to the hundreds (possible exaggeration for emphasis) of times i did with M.O.V. in dotp 09. Keep some decks as tribes because some work well, but heres to hoping they mix it up a bit and add a few decks that arent 'Press A to win'.
Moderated by
ORC_Narada
on Mar 29, 2012 - 06:12AM
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1 year ago ::
Mar 29, 2012 - 6:14AM
#28
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I've removed content from this thread because harassment/baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_...Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 03, 2012 - 8:40AM
#29
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Date Joined:
Jul 24, 2010
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Just take out call to the grave, its OP and bugged. Besides, if you need call to the grave to win a game, except for extraordinary circumstances, ide say your skill is somewhat lacking and more experience is required.
Um right. Please tell me any viable way to remove a a buffed Sacred Wolf  who has lifelink and/or Armadillo Cloak  (and yes they stack) with Ghoulkeeper? The only real other choice you have is pray you draw your single Death Baron  and hope he doesn't put any number of auras that give totem armor, flying, or first strike because your options will shrink even more. Let's face it, +3/+3 auras are common as hell in the deck so it won't be very long before just a bigass Soulless One  is your option. The counter argument might be "Well that's assuming he gets a sacred wolf" but there's also the ledgewalker and canopy cover and even if I hold my insta kills to essentially counter canopy cover they have a number of ways to retrieve it.
How about Skyswallowers in both ToE and AD? Aside from CtG the only real option is to have one of my two Stromgald Crusader  s and a ***NINE*** free mana or Death Baron on the field. That's still taking 5 dmg either way.
I get that the deck is aggro and you're real option is generally to try to overwhelm them before they can get too crazy but AD and ToE have a lot of ramp, Auramancer can have basically a 3/3 flying hexproof lifelinker on turn 3 (ledgewalker with armadillo), Beknigthed can have a turn 4 hexproof Knight Exemplar. Any of these are almost gauranteed lose conditions against the deck. I don't think any of them are "extraordinary circumstances" either.
Also, if my skill is so lacking I'd be happy to 1v1 you and your apparently experienced and skilled control of Ghoulkeeper and see what happens.
I've seen Call to the Grave make people get rid of shroud/hexproof/protection from black cards. From what I've seen it's only zombies that are safe from it.
I don't know what version of the game you're playing but Call to the Grave NEVER makes people sacrifice Shroud and/or Hexproof and/or Canopy Cover. I can't speak to Prot. Black that was just something someone else had previously said so I assumed it to be accurate. The spell is supposed to work on ANY and EVERY non-Zombie creature. It doesn't.
And let's not act like Shroud/Hexproof cards are all that protected anyways. Curfew, Cultural Exchange (only for hexproof), the 2 mana/3 mana kicker card in Vampire, and the Sacrifice Two Attacking Creatures card all can get rid of Shroud/Hexproof cards, and Curfew is only 1 mana so there are plenty of ways around Shroud/Hexproof. The real problem is idiots who play Aura and just drop one creature and jack it up as large as possible forgetting how easy it is to take 1 creature off the battlefield in various different ways, even with hexproof on it.
There are others you didn't mention, i.e. sweepers like Damnation  , Sunblast Angel  , Mass Calcify  and there are global damagers (though those are generally 2 to 3 damage and most things with shroud/hexproof have more than 4 toughness) so yes there are ways for shrouded creatures to get removed. I'm not denying that. What I'm saying is 50% of Ghoulkeeper's options for generally getting rid of a shrouded creature (aside from just having a bigger creature to block with) is not even an option. You're essentially left with praying for Deathbaron if you're playing any deck that uses hexproof.
I'd also note that many of the options you listed allow the opponent to select which creature dies/gets sent back. Gatekeeper of Malakir  , Curfew  Dispense Justice  and I'll add in Barter in Blood  allow the creatures' owners to make the selection, not the caster of the spell. What that means is you just make sure you have enough fodder to counter the effect. They do work, but not always. Heck, dispense even has the added issue of requiring them to ATTACK- if I'm AD and I see 3 CMC w/ one of those being white left open you better believe I'm not attacking without at least 2 saprolings going with my force.
At the end of the day I'm not actually saying get rid of hexproof/shroud. I said it to illustrate my point which is that it's unfair to implement a block on certain cards but not others that interact poorly with actual game rulings.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 03, 2012 - 8:58AM
#30
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Just take out call to the grave, its OP and bugged. Besides, if you need call to the grave to win a game, except for extraordinary circumstances, ide say your skill is somewhat lacking and more experience is required.
Um right. Please tell me any viable way to remove a a buffed Sacred Wolf who has lifelink and/or Armadillo Cloak (and yes they stack) with Ghoulkeeper? The only real other choice you have is pray you draw your single Death Baron and hope he doesn't put any number of auras that give totem armor, flying, or first strike because your options will shrink even more. Let's face it, +3/+3 auras are common as hell in the deck so it won't be very long before just a bigass Soulless One is your option. The counter argument might be "Well that's assuming he gets a sacred wolf" but there's also the ledgewalker and canopy cover and even if I hold my insta kills to essentially counter canopy cover they have a number of ways to retrieve it.
How about Skyswallowers in both ToE and AD? Aside from CtG the only real option is to have one of my two Stromgald Crusader s and a ***NINE*** free mana or Death Baron on the field. That's still taking 5 dmg either way.
I get that the deck is aggro and you're real option is generally to try to overwhelm them before they can get too crazy but AD and ToE have a lot of ramp, Auramancer can have basically a 3/3 flying hexproof lifelinker on turn 3 (ledgewalker with armadillo), Beknigthed can have a turn 4 hexproof Knight Exemplar. Any of these are almost gauranteed lose conditions against the deck. I don't think any of them are "extraordinary circumstances" either.
I get what youre saying, but how is any deck meant to get rid of the sacred wolf in those circumstances? GK shouldnt be given a free ride, if anything its a counter to your deck intentional or not. Any game vs AD is on the clock, smash them before the fatties come out. Say im playing UF, how do i get rid of simic sky swallower? How do i kill an eldrazi?
Every deck has counters and can pull out moves other decks cant stop. Im playin ROI, AD pulls out a leviathon, now what? I have 3 cancels 2 counterspells and a summoners bane, if i cant play them its game over.
On the flip side, how many decks can realistically deal with call to the grave? ide say less than GK can deal with shrouded creatures. Im 100% sure you know more about magic than i do, but these are just simple counters. Yeah its crap when the card comes down and you think "well thats my game over in 3 turns and theres nothing i can do". if anything, blame the deck set up other than the bugs.
Do you really see it as fair if call to the grave worked on everycard as it should? I know it SHOULD and its broken but im not talking about bugs, the decision to put that card in an environment like DOTP is a bad decision, very very few decks have enchantment destruction, even less are those decks that arent contained within DLC. Of all the bugs in this game, call to the grave is one that i dont mind. It still wipes out 90% of creatures, if that isnt enough then im not sure what you want?
My point is, take out call to the grave and you fix any problems with bugs, accusations of OP (not just by me, because lets face it, in DOTP it is a bit much) and it would help balance things out a bit more. You might be cheesed off not being able to kill that one creature, how cheesed off do you think people feel when call to the grave drops wiping out a defence, followed by endless ranks of the dead, undead warrior and that zombie giant? I know call to the grave is one of the 'bombs' in GK, but its just not needed to win the game. Like i said before, if you need such a powerful card to win the game except in those circumstances where youre being out-manned, have very little life and draw Call, then ide say rethink some tactics.
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