|
1 year ago ::
Feb 15, 2012 - 2:22PM
#111
|
Date Joined:
Oct 12, 2010
|
A quality, I won't have an issue with. But then there's the issue of how to go about doing it. And no, we can't do a sixth basic. Could you imagine a sixth basic? MR: So we're making a sixth color. That means we need a sixth basic. GH: What does the sixth color do? JH: What's its basic land? Desert? Wait, we already have that . MR: Beach sounds too island-like. ZH: I'd say City, but that feels more white. MR: This is the same issue with Barry's Land. JH: Cave. No, wait, Underground Sea and River already put Cave as black. MR: Don't forget Crosis's Catacombs . GH: Whatever it is, we'll have to print hundreds of them for free so stores have enough for limited. MR: Moving on. Which color? JH: Purple. GH: Purple. ZH: Purple. MR: Why does nobody ever say orange?
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] = Lightning Bolt
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Feb 15, 2012 - 2:31PM
#112
|
Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2010
|
Spoiler:
Show
My Decks http://community.wizards.com/vennsvaults/go/forum/viewcategory/138835/Venns_Vaults My Bronation Station http://community.wizards.com/pony My 1000th post! On Thursday 03/13/2011! Yay St. Patric's day. How to play many other Casual Magic Formats http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29198663/?sdb=1&pg=last#521400213 Many of these were on the Magic Resources Site years ago. It was removed around the time 2HG became a sanctioned format. Purple Work Station http://community.wizards.com/purpleworkstation/go/forum/viewboard
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Feb 15, 2012 - 2:53PM
#113
|
|
|
I didn't say I hadn't seen any new mechanics. I said purple doesn't seem to be adding anything that can't already be put into the five colors, so why add a sixth?
My first post said that adding a sixth color instead of putting new mechanics into the existing colors is lazy. My second post was a link to a thread in Future Set Speculation. My third post asked why we need a sixth color for the proposed mechanics. My fourth post did that too. My fifth post called the creation of a sixth color as a starting point rather than a solution 'bad design'. My sixth post was a snarky dig at your memory of the rest of the thread. My seventh post was this one.
And at a couple points I noted that the other colors could easily take the proposed mechanics. So I ask again, what are you trying to design that makes purple such a necessity?
"Char you." ~Craig Jones Spoiler:
Show
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Feb 15, 2012 - 3:26PM
#114
|
Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2005
|
Kensan_Oni, thank you for saying that it is a mechanic. Please tell me what a mechanic is vs. what I'm thinking. Maybe I can fix what I said. And how would it further restrict the options that players have? Outside of the release, other cards could gain the abilities, mechanics etc. One colour doesn't have to have the monopoly on a mechanic.
You mus-understand the mechanic. You feel that the Color of Magic Mechanic exists to create themes in magic, when that is only it's surface purpose. It's true purpose is to make it difficult to make exactly the deck you want.
Just for a moment, imagine if the best spell in every color is castable with the same mana. That there were no colors. Games would purely be determined not only by card draw, but by who had figured out the best cards in the game, and played just those. Part of the whole reason for Colored Magic was to separate the best spells out of colors, so that to play the best best deck, you might have to dip into two colors, or three. Thus, the Color Wheel limits players by the mechanic of Colored Mana.
So, any effect you want to have in magic gets filtered by flavor into one of the five colors. The Effect itself isn't horribly important, and the Color Wheel has been shown is flexible enough where any effect you want can end up in a color you want, as long as the flavor of the card works for it.
The biggest effect the Color Wheel currently has is on Limited Magic. Due to lack of Multilands and color filters, choosing a color, knowing when to get out of a color, and being able to evaluate how much of a color is coming to you is important. With just 5 colors, it's quite a balancing and guessing game as to which color is coming your way, especially when one pack ends up "supercharged" with one color.
Adding another color *adds* to this complication, and further restricts the way Magic is constructed.
a) Another color means that you have yet another box with Effects much be put into. That weakens every color, including the new color, by creating new needs to fill in new design space.
b) Adding another color takes away from Design Space further, by forcing less cards for each color, including our colorless slots, to accommodate for this new color scheme. This is significant, because the Common Diagram is already pretty tight in it's requirements due to the design requirements for Limited.
c) Adding a color fundamentally changes all evaluation of Limited. 6 colors means on average there will be 2 cards a color per pack, instead of the almost average 3 we have now. With distribution variance, you can end up with more people having more unplayable decks, because the 'signals' become weaker due to lack of color variance, and the cards that mean anything now are spread out futher during your sealed events.
...
You talk about opening up options. Never mind that I think "Creativity" is already the realm of Blue and White. What you actually are doing, however, is limiting options, and limiting what kinds of decks will be built, By stealing from other colors, and jamming it into a sixth, which you then have to work around.
My prediction is that will lead more players to play 3 color decks, to compensate for the sudden lack of their colors (Into your new Purple, who has the most identity it has to establish), and futher create issues of the "Best Deck" becoming a 2 color powerhouse, that is that way because the answers that are needed to beat the deck are now in three different colors, because you designed Purple that way.
Hence, you add less consistency to the game, and help establish less answers for problem decks because the answers become unplayable due to the spread of powers.
...
As an Aside, you can't think of Colors as Factions as you could in, say, Battletech. Battletech shared one resource, and only due to enforced Faction structure, did the game stay somewhat balanced (Although not really). Colors are an inherit division of power in the game of Magic, and creating more colors divides existing power more. It is better to change flavor to distribute existing power, than it is to create a new division, in my opinion.
This is why I feel that you do not understand the purpose and goals of the mecahnic behind the Colors of Magic.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Feb 15, 2012 - 5:13PM
#115
|
Date Joined:
Oct 23, 2010
|
Wynzerman: How closely have you followed this post? We're talking about a colour that changes how things work (until other people post better ideas). It has the potential to make things harder to cast, and easier. For that, look at when I wrote "while making the path harder for others. At best, I'm optimistic and opend minded; At worst, I'm difficult and deranged." There's a mechanic. Purple has so far been listed to move cards to the exile zone and then into play, or move things around in the command zone. "I know what I want and I will make it happen. If it isn't possible yet, I will work to make it possible. If it is in my way, I will move it, or remove it." White exiles the opposing threats. Purple exiles its potential threats to gain an edge. It may or may not be able to use it later (depending on what it moves to the exile zone and from where), but it can in some cases, and it does this to gain an edge. It isn't like black, sacrificing what it's already spent mana on. Purple exiles things in its own hand to draw into a new option. Some of those may be able to enter the battlefield for a different cost, or cards may enable purple to cast from the exile zone for a different cost. Other cards are from outside the game (see my first spoiler box with potential cards). This is purple taking things that aren't real and making them real. It counters cards, but puts them back into the opponent's hand. It's not hard/final counters like blue, but it's another type that cares about the aether. Purple is hardly a reactive colour (similar to black), but it isn't the malicious and manipulating colour that black is. Please tell me again, how they can't use mechanics in the game to represent this? I just gave you ignored/forgotten mechanics and some that are new that do this.
Err... Knowledge Pool isn't a very solid mechanic to build an entire color out of. Controling exiled cards further diminishes the usefulness of cards like Oblivion Ring and Journey to Nowhere . Actually, I think you may misunderstand the object of "exiling", as there is no "exiled" zone (due to the usage of Imprint and Oblivion Ring cards which have very specific exiling targets). This means that each group of exiled cards tends to have it's own zone and symbolism. is already established as the "exiling" color, especially with the advent of the blinking effect. Point being- It just doesn't seem very viable, as an "aggressive" purple deck would ideally play too much like Aggro, and purple control would be too much like Control, which seems to accomplish nothing to develop and explore the game further.
 Signature by
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Feb 16, 2012 - 6:19AM
#116
|
Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2010
|
Wyzerman: Good post. White blinks, and white exiles from play. Currently, white is the colour of exiling... the only dependible colour of exiling (outside of Kamigawa and Oubliette esq cards.) Purple would exile things for the most part, before they ever hit play (no colour does that yet). I don't see why you say that purple control would be like white control. White doesn't shrink creatures (anymore). White also doesn't delay them. White just forces them to enter tapped, or you need to pay more to attack with them... or you can only cast a set number of spells per turn. None of these are what purple does. Purple is kinda' evasive like blue, with the shadow mechanic, but heck, last we saw shadow, half of it was blue. I don't really have a good counter for this one. Kensan_Oni: If I were talking about releasing purple in durring block so that it could ever hit standard, limited or eternal formats, I would agree with you 100%. But we aren't talking about that. We're talking about releasing it on its own, away from competative Magic, because you can't balance it with the other colours in each level of competition. Minus_Prime: I'm not. I'm just saying that if they were to do Purple, this is what Purple could do. I know that I won't make it happen (unless I magically become a member of R&D). I know that they won't take my ideas if they make it. However, if they were to, given what they've already openly said, this is how I would do it. I'm looking for how others would like to see it happen (means of release, mechanics, sources, styles of art etc).
Spoiler:
Show
My Decks http://community.wizards.com/vennsvaults/go/forum/viewcategory/138835/Venns_Vaults My Bronation Station http://community.wizards.com/pony My 1000th post! On Thursday 03/13/2011! Yay St. Patric's day. How to play many other Casual Magic Formats http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29198663/?sdb=1&pg=last#521400213 Many of these were on the Magic Resources Site years ago. It was removed around the time 2HG became a sanctioned format. Purple Work Station http://community.wizards.com/purpleworkstation/go/forum/viewboard
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Feb 16, 2012 - 7:49AM
#117
|
Date Joined:
Feb 18, 2010
|
Colors and mechanics are entwineable. You can make a mechanic that thrives on colors and vice versa you can also make a color that thrives on mechanics!
As I see it there are several ways to approach this:
One way could be to make purple manasources, then make some cards that get something extra out of you having purple mana.
Purple knight: WW
protection from black first strike
(P): change the color of the protection to another
2/2
"It's not that the world doesn't like to be warped! It's more that it's ME doing the warping" thanazar, purple mage.
The purple player would get some extra out of playing with the purple theme and on the backside would struggle with optimizing their manasources, this is something that would reflect the purple mindset as far as I've figured out!
Now depending on the power of "purple" (After all it can be a mechanic instead of a color) there could be introduced new duals where the land could be producing for example either blue mana or purple.
There is no actual need to call this whole thing a color.
This is actually a good idea. It would be another color, but not a "full" one. I think this could be pulled off.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Feb 16, 2012 - 8:52AM
#118
|
Date Joined:
Sep 22, 2008
|
Kensan_Oni: If I were talking about releasing purple in durring block so that it could ever hit standard, limited or eternal formats, I would agree with you 100%. But we aren't talking about that. We're talking about releasing it on its own, away from competative Magic, because you can't balance it with the other colours in each level of competition.
Funny how an idea evolve over 12 pages. Even in an Un__________ block I'd hate to see a 6th color
I love trolls  Dont hate me because I'm blunt and you cannot handle it
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Feb 17, 2012 - 4:04AM
#119
|
Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2010
|
How is that an idea evolving over 12 pages?
Spoiler:
Show
My Decks http://community.wizards.com/vennsvaults/go/forum/viewcategory/138835/Venns_Vaults My Bronation Station http://community.wizards.com/pony My 1000th post! On Thursday 03/13/2011! Yay St. Patric's day. How to play many other Casual Magic Formats http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29198663/?sdb=1&pg=last#521400213 Many of these were on the Magic Resources Site years ago. It was removed around the time 2HG became a sanctioned format. Purple Work Station http://community.wizards.com/purpleworkstation/go/forum/viewboard
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Feb 19, 2012 - 1:44PM
#120
|
Date Joined:
Dec 15, 2011
|
ARTVENN: This post has 12 pages and the discussion has evolved over it, and so has some of the core-concepts discussed. As such the idea itself has evolved. Looking at it from that perspective, the longer it is discussed, the more it will evolve and consequently the higher are the chances of seing something close to your purple magic come true  I don't think there will BE a sixth color, but I do believe that some new mechanics can end up simulating it. Artifact lands and affinity are an example of that. Too bad that concept was too abusive to begin with, artifact affinity probably wont surface again, but basic land affinity may still have a chance
|
|
|