it's been around for a while now. with all this grave hate circulating, what is the viability of it in today's legacy format?
It could work, but have you seen the new hate card? It ffing kills dredge in one go.
Grafdigger's cage, it's called.
Dredge has been overcoming permanent-based hate like Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Nihil Spellbomb, Leyline of the Void, Wheel of Sun and Moon, and now Grafdigger's since it came into existence. It has the options from its sideboard to beat all those cards. Just look at these solutions...
Chain of Vapor
Ray of Revelation
I have a feeling the best way to beat Grafdiggers is just dreding as hard as always, and I think that'll prove to be right.
Ingot Chewer + Golgari Thug will beat Cage hard. Since we don't have to mulligan aggressively to find Chewer, we are much better off than people think. Maybe they don't know about this tech yet, but they will.
that's true. I remember playing dredge for the first time, back in 2010, and as soon as I won that tournament, everyone was buying crypts and relics, as well as stocking up on wheels and bojuka bogs. it always unnerves me when I see a lot of players siding graveyard hate.
Ancient Grudge doesn't help. Because the Cage shuts off casting from the graveyard, you can't dredge into your anti-hate, then cast it for cheap. You have to actually draw into it. This is the reason why it hoses Dredge decks so much. Unlike Reanimator, where they can continue to fill the yard and otherwise enact their gameplan with the Cage in play, Dredge has to stall the game until they get their anti-hate in hand. Then once they've played it, they start the game over from turn 1.
Now, I don't think the deck will disappear. It will just have to adapt. I'm not even sure if the Cage will see long-term play in Legacy since it seems a little weak.
@igri: I don't see how you can say you don't have to mulligan aggresively to get to your anti-hate. You can't sit there and do nothing for several turns while you wait for the Thug to be played and die.
You'd Darkblast your own Thug to put the Chewer on top of your library.
@igri: I don't play Dredge, so correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't you not want to dredge while under the Cage because if you hit any Narcomoeba s, they'd just rot away in your yard, which would greatly delay your devolpement? Or does that get around the Cage because it's not coming from your graveyard into play?
Cage stops Narcomoeba, you're right about that. Here are my thoughts on it. If Cage is already in play, then you have to start dredging. Not getting Narco's trigger does suck, but the alternative of losing sucks more. Actually, there is a bit of compensation for Narcomoeba if I have to go Thug into Chewer. I'll get two warm bodies to die and Bridges still trigger, which means I'll have tokens in play the turn that Cage is blown up. At that point, I can start flashing Dread Return and Therapy to lock the game up. That's my plan, supplemented by Nature's Claim or Chain of Vapor.
Eh, Dredge can use Nature's Claim . That thing with the Thug seems too complicated when you have Claim. I still insist that you should not dredge and just draw until you find Claim. Besides, if your opponent has counterspells, you're not avoiding them, either by using Claim or Chewer.
Thing is, Dredge already had a bad matchup against aggro decks if I'm not mistaken, and now control decks can keep Dredge in check with an artifact and countermagic. I know, it's possible it will survive, but I'm still not 100% sure about that.
You do use Nature's Claim. For future LED versions, you can bring in 4 Claim, 2 Chewer & 2 Tarnished Citadel, depending on how much hate they bring in game two. (tip: watch them board) Dredging up Thug and killing it off isn't complicated. Unless they never want to attack on the ground, they're going to give me several turns to answer their hate. Darkblast and Salvage might be complicated, but they do progress the deck and have been used in the past and could be used in the future. My whole point is that dredge has lots of options and some are still unexplored.
Dredge doesn't have to completely blow out the opponent to get the win. A lot of dredge players don't play the deck correctly when you have to take it slow. That might sound arrogant, but I've been playing it for 14 months and have noticed how often people leave in Breakthrough in the wrong matchups, as an example.
Luckily for us, if it doesn't work out game two, you get a third. Side back into the original list (mostly) and blow them out with a Therapy or LED shenanigans.
I can't believe you're so scared of an artifact. It's just going to be popular once it comes out, but I don't think it's stronger than Crypt or Relic, only different. People will want to play with it simply because it's the new thing. Then, its popularity will slowly recede. Legacy is one big fashion trend, if you've noticed.
The reason so many people are "scared" of it is that it will be widely available, fairly cheap to obtain, can be played in any deck and versatile. It's a catch-all that everyone can play. I doubt it will be a mainstay in Legacy long-term, but it will wreck some decks for a while before it calms down.
I'm actually expecting way more than half of the people in the local stores I visit to slide in 2-4 to their sideboard. I'm not scared or anything, I'll be using that card for sure, especially looking at the Dark Ascension complete spoiler, it's the only card I'll be looking for. Heck, this card may be the only reason I want to go to the prereleases.
What I'm saying is that sure, it's not the end of the world for Dredge, and I agree that a ton of people do a ton of mistakes with that deck. I was playing dredge since June, ended up thinking with mathematics on how to turn the tides to my favour during a game. But, let's be honest, it's harder to stop than Relic or Crypt. The advantage it gives you is that you get to keep your graveyard and you can go wild once it breaks, but it will give you a hard time to break.
I'm not starting a debate here, but I genuinely don't think Cage is harder to stop than Relic or Crypt. I don't use Grudge, so it's really not any different to me. The fact I can dredge against it makes me think it's weaker than the older artifacts.
I thought about it for a while too. The reason I stopped playing Grudge was that people learned to prevent me from dredging in the first place with their hate, rather than using it when they thought was the opportune time. They figured that out from getting beat even with hate on their side. That's why I'm confident in my ability to beat Cage, since I get to progress my game plan, while finding what I need. This is a luxury I didn't have before.
I'm still siding in six anti-artifact cards, so I can still peel one in my opening seven and just blow the game open. All my eggs aren't in the "dredge despite narco" basket.
I wanna build my dredge deck so bad. Some of the people at the shop I regularly visit are bandwagon players and are probably going nuts about this. After taking time to look at it and really consider this card in a game, I don't really care about it. It's overpowered, it dismantles many strategies, EVERYONE'S gonna taylor half of their sideboard to this card, I might even look for reliable ways to run artifact hate MB since my meta is gonna have a few Affinity decks anyways. It'll suck to be opposing this card but It'll suck even more relying on it. Dredge seems to have endless options. I don't think card is going to keep it's problem status for long.
12 cards dedicated to hating Dredge? Thats outrageous! OK, so in a meta where no one wants to ever lose games 2 or 3 against Dredge then yeah, it's viability goes down. Thats really true of almost any deck. Play something else like UW Stoneforge or Zoo or Enchantress.
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