This guy... is amazing! Not very "lich" like, but still amazing. U/B control will love this guy. Think about it: unlimited plays of snapcaster. Think about it... UNLIMITED snapcaster. Plus, since Snapcaster has flash, it should be able to be used during your opponents turn, bypassing the possible negative to this card (3cmc, but by the time you get this guy out, you would be able to afford snapcaster + doomblade or counter the next turn). This guy to me seems broken as hell, and next to grimgrin (with gravecrawler being a recursive sac req for grimgrin) i will quite enjoy playing B/U zombies (anyone say even MORE recursive zombies?).
initial read of the card was rediculously OP but the second read through has me curious. It allows you to cast the creature from the graveyard but it makes no mention on weither or not you need to pay the targeted creatures casting cost when you do. If so all this card allows a player to actually do is play their creature cards in their graveyard as if they are in their hand for an additional mana.
I suspect that you indeed have to pay the original creatures casting cost when you choose to cast it from the graveyard thus making this card WAY less OP and more balanced.
Yes, because it doesn't play "without paying it's mana cost."
I find most interesting the rules timing of when Lich gets their ability. It's once the creatures cast, regardless of whether it resolves or not. So countering a creature cast with Lich wont stop it from getting that creatures ability. Yay!
Tbh I'm surpirised about the confusions this card is creating. Remember this: Any rule that the card does not mention works as normal. So for casting creatures from graveyard for free this would have to say without paying its mana cost and so on. And there's only 1 rule this ability is changing: you can cast the creature in graveyard that you normally couldn't.
Correct me if I am wrong (but not because you simply "believe" I awrong because you "believe" you are correct):
There is a restriction on the timing on the card, because the card itself gives you a timeframe in which the ability may be used. With use of "this turn" creating a continuous effect, and as such you have to follow timing rules. A similar card is Knacksaw Clique , a horribly underplayed card from many years ago. The Clique doesn't ignore timing restrictions and cannot cast cards from your opponent's library that you yourself cannot cast unless it could be cast in this phase normally. Thus, the new Lich can only play creature cards without flash at sorcery speed. The ability to play creature cards at instant speed is the reason the card doesn't further restrict you "at sorcery speed" or "during your own turn." Thus, while the card is flexible, it is not supremely powerful.
"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count."
"Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969)
"Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
I do not think the combo works, since the gained ability untaps "Grimgrin", mentioned by name ... and not the Lich? (If I read the rules right, it doesn't even untap the original Grimgrin if you sacrifice the Token Vampire to the Lich ...)
I do not think the combo works, since the gained ability untaps "Grimgrin", mentioned by name ... and not the Lich? (If I read the rules right, it doesn't even untap the original Grimgrin if you sacrifice the Token Vampire to the Lich ...)
Whenever a card gains an ability, if the original ability refers to its originating card's name, it is treated as though it reads [CARDNAME], "this card" or "this permanent" instead. Thus when Havengul Lich gains an ability from Grimgrin, it reads as though all instances of "Grimgrin" are actually "Havengul Lich" instead.
"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count."
"Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969)
"Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
I do not think the combo works, since the gained ability untaps "Grimgrin", mentioned by name ... and not the Lich? (If I read the rules right, it doesn't even untap the original Grimgrin if you sacrifice the Token Vampire to the Lich ...)
Whenever a card gains an ability, if the original ability refers to its originating card's name, it is treated as though it reads [CARDNAME], "this card" or "this permanent" instead. Thus when Havengul Lich gains an ability from Grimgrin, it reads as though all instances of "Grimgrin" are actually "Havengul Lich" instead.
I read through the so-called "comprehensive rules", but couldn't find that one.
I do not think the combo works, since the gained ability untaps "Grimgrin", mentioned by name ... and not the Lich? (If I read the rules right, it doesn't even untap the original Grimgrin if you sacrifice the Token Vampire to the Lich ...)
Whenever a card gains an ability, if the original ability refers to its originating card's name, it is treated as though it reads [CARDNAME], "this card" or "this permanent" instead. Thus when Havengul Lich gains an ability from Grimgrin, it reads as though all instances of "Grimgrin" are actually "Havengul Lich" instead.
I read through the so-called "comprehensive rules", but couldn't find that one.
Thanks.
No worries. As additonal clarification, instances of names on cards are mostly flavor; the only exceptions are "card named [NAME]" which is technical rather than flavor.
The rule relevant here, though, is 201.4: 201.4. Text that refers to the object it‘s on by name means just that particular object and not any other objects with that name, regardless of any name changes caused by game effects. 201.4a If an ability‘s effect grants another ability to an object, and that second ability refers to that first ability‘s source by name, the name refers only to the specific object that is that first ability‘s source, not to any other object with the same name.
Example: Gutter Grime has an ability that reads “Whenever a nontoken creature you control dies, put a slime counter on Gutter Grime , then put a green Ooze creature tokenonto the battlefield with „This creature‟s power and toughness are each equal to the number of slime counters on Gutter Grime .‟” The ability granted to the token only looksat the Gutter Grime that created the token, not at any other Gutter Grime on thebattlefield.
"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count."
"Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969)
"Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
